Bathroom electrics - Lighting specific

[Steveoz]

Hi Guys,

A colleague at work mentioned this site to me to seek advice, so here I am!

I own a typical bay fronted 1930's house, which had the electrics updated prior to me moving in as I have the paperwork (4 years ago). However, the bathroom light was and has always been just the original / normal oldschool rose fitting with a shade and bulb, although the bulb has always been exposed to moisture from the shower. I've never really thought about it to be honest as it has been like that since I moved in and has been fine. I removed the unit and it didn't show any signs of moisture damage.

This brings me on to my issue, I have recently been decorating the bathroom, and fitted a spotlight unit to the ceiling, however I have noticed that it is not IP rated (have recently found out about the IP ratings). Common sense said to me when fitting the light that I needed to seal the unit, so I wired in as normal and sealed the units plate to the ceiling with a silicone bead and used rubber washers on the back of the bolt units that attach the spotlights to the base to seal them. Anyway I've now found out about the rating system and so I'm looking at changing it, however I wanted to know what the main difference is between an IP rated unit and my unit I have fitted (other than the testing, IE seals etc).

As mentioned I have sealed the base unit, but the cups that hold the GU10's have no seal on them and a small vent on the back of each cup facing the ceiling to release heat I suspect. So will this be dangerous in the mean time until I replace? I suspect it should be fine temporarily given GU10's are used in bathrooms and I have sealed the unit, but I just wanted to be sure as I am going to mail order the IP44 rated ones later this week and it may be a week or so before I recieve them and then fit it?

The current position of the lights would mean it is zone 3, it's away from the shower in the centre of the ceiling, but I heard that zone 3 is the entire ceiling and rest of the room if a shower is fitted. I do have an extractor fan and always have the window open when showering, but it does still build up condensation.

On looking at various pictures, it looks like the main difference is that the gu10's normally stick out, and a seal is present around the back part of the bulb to stpo moisture, but as I'm not clued up on this I wanted to check.


Many thanks,


Steve

 

[Steveoz]

Oh yes, I have googled everywhere and searched the forum, but I can't find the answers to my question. Thanks.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I wanted to know what the main difference is between an IP rated unit and my unit I have fitted (other than the testing, IE seals etc).

So you're asking what's the difference between your DIY fix, and a unit which has been properly tested and officially certified as having an IP rating and therefore guaranteed to provide the required resistance to water etc ingress, apart from the proper testing and official certification and the guarantee of providing the required resistance to water etc ingress?

The current position of the lights would mean it is zone 3, it's away from the shower in the centre of the ceiling, but I heard that zone 3 is the entire ceiling and rest of the room if a shower is fitted.

There is no Zone 3 any more.

//www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:bathroom-zones

On looking at various pictures, it looks like the main difference is that the gu10's normally stick out, and a seal is present around the back part of the bulb to stpo moisture, but as I'm not clued up on this I wanted to check.

Don't they have a sealed glass cover over them to stop any moisture getting anywhere near the bulb?

I'm not 100% certain, as I will have nothing to do with GU10/MR16 lights - they are an abomination - inefficient and useless. They should be banned, and you should replace your current light with one that actually works properly, not more of the same carp.

 

[Steveoz]

Hi,

No I'm asking how they are IP rated (spotlight specific for GU10 for bathrooms) as to me it looks as though the other IP44 rated units have bulbs sticking out and just a seal over the back of the bulb, other than that it they look like a normal unit.

I wanted to know what to look for specifically this time around so I do not make the same mistake. The unit I was going to order was this one:

http://www.easylighting.co.uk/viewproduct.php?product_id=14024

My bathroom is split into three areas and allows me to direct the light where I want it, hence wanting a small compact spot light unit instead of the old rose fitting with a single bulb.

I also understand that there I need to have it inspected and a part P filed to the local authority, will an IP44 fitting be sufficiant for this?

With regards to the link you posted and the new zones, would IP44 still be suitable?

Thanks,

**EDIT**

I've just found out that the units have achieved an IP44 rating by installing a silicone seal around the back part of the spotlights, but otherwise the lights are fully exposed. Not sure how safe that is / isn't.

 

[Taylortwocities]

The manufacturer states in the description "Suitable for the bathroom"

Assuming your ceiling is more than 2.25metres then the fitting is outside the zones. And they are IP44 rated so thats it, done, sorted.

Are they safe?? - the only electrically exposed part would be the lamp contact when you take the lamp out. They are GU10 lamps so you would have to get a metal pointy thing to touch a live part as the contact is recessed into a ceramic fitting.

The GU10 lamp comprises a halogen light envelope and this is mounted inside an outer glass cover. So that is two layers of glass between you and the glowing thing. Thats one more layer of glass than a standard lamp.

The only other live parts would be if you were to unscrew the fitting from the ceiling and you wouldn't be doing that, would you

 

[Steveoz]

That's great thanks.

I bought mine without really thinking and as the lights were recessed in and they are on the ceiling in the centre the chances of water directly getting on them is slim, but I didn't really think about the condensation too much, I sealed around the back plate the the attachements and wrapped the wire and forgot about it until mentioning it to someone at work. So thats when I looked it up and saw the info on zones etc and the ratings.

As long as the exposed bulbs are ok and wont cause an issue, then I'll get an IP44 rated assembly as shown and fit it.

Many thanks.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Pleasure.

Hit the

Untitled

• Taylortwocities
• 9 Sep 2009
• 34

. Its fun!

 

[Steveoz]

Done

 

[LiamPope]

When we're talking about outside zones, where no IP rating is required, what exactly would make a fitting unsuitable according to the general rules which apply outside zones? I've seen fittings that are little more than bayonets that would hold completely 'naked' GU10s marked as suitable for zone 3/outside zones. In my bathroom, outside of zones, I have fitted downlights which, for what it's worth, do meet Part C requirements for resistance to passage of moisture (among other things), but are only IP20.

Granted I dont know exactly what he's fitted, but I can't see any problem with the OP's existing light unit if it's outside zones, other than the unnecessary DIY sealing - those rubber washers may be likely to burn for example.

Liam

 

[Steveoz]

When we're talking about outside zones, where no IP rating is required, what exactly would make a fitting unsuitable according to the general rules which apply outside zones? I've seen fittings that are little more than bayonets that would hold completely 'naked' GU10s marked as suitable for zone 3/outside zones. In my bathroom, outside of zones, I have fitted downlights which, for what it's worth, do meet Part C requirements for resistance to passage of moisture (among other things), but are only IP20.

Granted I dont know exactly what he's fitted, but I can't see any problem with the OP's existing light unit if it's outside zones, other than the unnecessary DIY sealing - those rubber washers may be likely to burn for example.

Liam

The bathroom is fairly big and I woudln't have worried at all, but due to the shower there can be some fair condensation in there with the temp ramped up on the shower, as it is the over the bath type.

If it was just the case of water, I would have said that no direct contact with water would be likely to ever happen - we have a very high roof (so much so there is hardly a loft space to crawl into!) I haven't measured it but I can't touch the light fitting without a step ladder or standing on the side of the bath (and I am 6ft 2) but it's the condensation / steam that makes it's way toward the roof that worried me.

The back of the base plate on the existing unit stays cool, and as it mounts to a bracket on the ceiling, it was not air tight and there was a small gap that moisture could have gone in through unlike the rose fitting, so I sealed that against the roof with a bead of silicone. I also tightened up the nuts / washers on the back that attach the spot light units as they were too loose and popped in some rubber washers to seal, but I've used those on car projects before where they are exposed to high temperature so they have been fine. Although like I said this will be replaced as I want the propper certification, and I'm glad I found out.

As per my original question though on the rating, as I wasn't familiar with the ratings, I wanted to understand the lengths to which the manufacturer go to get the rating and what constitutes an IP44 rating as a lot of the fittings I have seen on my search have bare bulbs and in all honesty didn't 'appear' to be any safer than standard ones because of the exposed parts.

I'm happy from Taylors response that the bulbs should be fine, and the fact that a lot are sold like that, so I just want to buy a more sealed unit for protection against condensation.


Cheers,