Bathroom-to-bedroom conversion - Building control?

[gspace]

Hi All,

New to posting on this site, but found it very useful to read through some of your excellent responses to others' posts in the past.

I recently bought a 1930's 4-bed semi and I've converted one of the 1st floor bedrooms into a new bathroom. I've not added a new soil stack as I've simply used the "hole in the ground" of the old downstairs toilet and put a soil stack into it, which now goes up the inside wall and through the ceiling to the new bathroom. Note that to get the soil stack into the new bathroom I have had to pass it through an interior wall, i.e. it curves round through two turns, but always has a fall on it. There is an air admittance valve on the top of the new stack. All plumbing has been earth bonded by an electrician and the shower installation has been connected by a Part P electrician, as have the bathroom lights. I don't have a fan installed, but there is a night-latched window. Other electrics have been moved out of the room and the light swith is now a ceiling pull cord.

My question is this: Does my conversion need a building certificate? If it does, is there anything above that may contravene existing legislation? I'm especially worried that the soil stack "curves" and that it goes through an interior wall? Reading the part H regulations, I think I've met them, but can't be 100% sure as there is only one para dealing with "offsets" in vertical stacks and it says that these are fine so long as there are no inlets to the stack within 75 cm of the offset, which there isn't in my case.

Follow-on: If I don't get building control, what are the possible penalties and is it still possible to sell the house without it, e.g. with a building regulations indemnity insurance policy? I realise I should have sought building control advice before starting, but on the advice of my Dad, who is an old school builder - I went ahead and now worried I may have to undo the work...

 

[jeds]

Don't worry about it. Building works are immune from enforcement after 12 months - and BC have no interest in pursuing you anyway. As long as the installation was carried out by a suitably qualified electrician and you are 100% satisfied that it is safe just forget about it.

When you come to sell there is a very good chance it won't even be mentioned. If it is you could provide an indemnity insurance as you suggested.

PS. The only thing that sounds like it doesn't comply is the extractor fan.

 

[gspace]

Don't worry about it. Building works are immune from enforcement after 12 months - and BC have no interest in pursuing you anyway. As long as the installation was carried out by a suitably qualified electrician and you are 100% satisfied that it is safe just forget about it.

When you come to sell there is a very good chance it won't even be mentioned. If it is you could provide an indemnity insurance as you suggested.

PS. The only thing that sounds like it doesn't comply is the extractor fan.

Thanks for the quick reply John!

I worried myself silly about this last night and got so worked up I'd convinced myself it would bankrupt me when I come to sell in a couple of years' time!

Thanks again. The electrics were all done by an electrician and I guess I can put in an extractor when I've got some money again.

 

[noseall]

Is the soil stack the only vent to the property or is there an svp elsewhere?

I personally would not be happy with an aav if there is no other venting stack to the house.

 

[Richard C]

Sorry to drag it up again but I doubt it will be as simple as jeds thinks; I believe your fears are well founded. It sounds like at least some of what you’ve done is non compliant. Even if it isn’t picked up at point of sale by survey, a HIP must also include a Property Information Questionnaire (you will be asked specific questions), all searches & relevant information regarding Building Works. You will also be asked to supply a compliance certificate for any such work. I advise not to lie to specific questions on the PIQ as that could leave you open to civil action & a possible damages claim; it’s happened. Once they discover it’s unauthorised, anyone with any sense will back away from the purchase unless you offer a serious price reduction to put it all right & then some; be honest, wouldn’t you!

An indemnity insurance against enforcement is just that; it won’t make the work compliant & won’t satisfy a picky loan company who may refuse an advance on a property with non-compliant building works in any case. My advice is to take what steps you need with your LABC & get a compliance certificate before it comes back & bites you on the arse when you least want it to!
Have a read of this;
//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=180552&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

There are several others if you search; the choice is yours my friend.

 

[gspace]

Is the soil stack the only vent to the property or is there an svp elsewhere?

I personally would not be happy with an aav if there is no other venting stack to the house.

Hi,
Yes, there is an outside svp. The exisiting dowstairs toilet drains into the sewer, which runs parallel to the back wall of the house and services many houses on the street. That sewer line has a vent at the top of a stack which is on the back wall of my house. The outside stack does not service any inlets, it is purely a vent. I didn't use it for my bathroom conversion as it is on the other side of the house, so I added an interior stack to the hole in the ground used by the existing downstairs toilet.

Does that sound ok do you think?

Thanks

 

[gspace]

Sorry to drag it up again but I doubt it will be as simple as jeds thinks; I believe your fears are well founded. It sounds like at least some of what you’ve done is non compliant. Even if it isn’t picked up at point of sale by survey, a HIP must also include a Property Information Questionnaire (you will be asked specific questions), all searches & relevant information regarding Building Works. You will also be asked to supply a compliance certificate for any such work. I advise not to lie to specific questions on the PIQ as that could leave you open to civil action & a possible damages claim; it’s happened. Once they discover it’s unauthorised, anyone with any sense will back away from the purchase unless you offer a serious price reduction to put it all right & then some; be honest, wouldn’t you!

An indemnity insurance against enforcement is just that; it won’t make the work compliant & won’t satisfy a picky loan company who may refuse an advance on a property with non-compliant building works in any case. My advice is to take what steps you need with your LABC & get a compliance certificate before it comes back & bites you on the a**e when you least want it to!
Have a read of this;
//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=180552&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

There are several others if you search; the choice is yours my friend.

Thanks Richard. I guess I'm worried it won't comply and that's why I don't want to call BC as it could cost me an arm and a leg to meet requirements and negate the possibility of an indemnity policy. I'm confident the electrics, lights and bonding are fine for an inspection. It's just the soil stack arrangement. If I were confident it would pass, I would pay for the inspection. Would a photo of the soild stack help?

 

[noseall]

Would a photo of the soild stack help?

Yes please.

 

[gspace]

Would a photo of the soild stack help?

Yes please.

I'll take one and post tomorrow. Thanks all.

 

[Richard C]

Thanks Richard. I guess I'm worried it won't comply and that's why I don't want to call BC

But that’s a bit like sticking your head in the sand & doesn’t change anything!

as it could cost me an arm and a leg to meet requirements and negate the possibility of an indemnity policy.

It shouldn't cost an arm & a leg to put right, the BR’s you need to comply with are not that onerous. As for negating the possibility of an indemnity policy, non-disclosure will invalidate any policy anyway; no insurance company is going to honour a claim if they find out you didn’t disclose material facts or, worse, lied on the proposal.

I'm confident the electrics, lights and bonding are fine for an inspection. It's just the soil stack arrangement. If I were confident it would pass, I would pay for the inspection. Would a photo of the soild stack help?

Everything on the drainage side is most likely easy to put right at not really significant cost; but that’s subjective I suppose. The only thing your likely to come unstuck with is if you’ve run new cabling &/or circuits in there & buried them in the walls; unless you can find a “willing” Part P spark to certify it & provide you with minor works certificate (he shouldn’t really), most LABC probably won’t accept a periodic inspection report as proof of installation compliance & may want it stripped back for inspection. Also, do you have any stud walls in there?

It may seem like a lot of hassle but nowhere near as much as it could be if you leave it or cost as much as the discount a future purchaser would want &, as I said, as long as they can actually get the lender to advance the cash on it.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Yoou can lead a horse to water........................

 

[gspace]

Thanks Richard. I think what you've said makes perfect sense. The potential cost of any work needed to make it compliant is likely to be less than any potential price reduction. I'll call in the BC. If they find things that need putting right, do they give a deadline for the work do you know?

Wrt your questions - there aren't any stud walls. The electrician buried the cable to the shower behind a tile, but this wouldn't be a biggie to take out and put back. Do BC still inspect the electrics even if an electrician has signed it off in any case?

Anyone got any more advice on an extractor fan? I read that if the bathroom has an openable window, it doesn't need one. Can anyone confirm that?

Thanks again.

 

[Richard C]

I'll call in the BC. If they find things that need putting right, do they give a deadline for the work do you know?

Seeing as the work is already done, your best call may be to apply for “regularisation” rather than a Building Notice;
http://www.tmbc.gov.uk/cgi-bin/buildpage.pl?mysql=457
I believe it’s slightly more expensive but not sure. No deadline as far as I’m aware once they get involved.

Wrt your questions - there aren't any stud walls.

Good, that’s one potential hurdle overcome.

The electrician buried the cable to the shower behind a tile, but this wouldn't be a biggie to take out and put back.

If it’s an electric shower, it must have its own dedicated circuit;
//www.diynot.com/pages/el/el055.php

Do BC still inspect the electrics even if an electrician has signed it off in any case?

If your install spark didn’t test the circuit & give you any test/certification paperwork, he’s not only breached BR’s, I believe he’s broken the law. Only a registered part P spark can sign off their own installation work (the bits you cant see); as I said, (legally) no one else can sign off another’s work, not even LABC so unless you can produce a minor works certificate through another Part P spark, LABC are unlikely to accept a periodic inspection report, (which tests the circuits) as proof the rest of the installation is compliant. They will almost certainly want to inspect the cable installation in which case you will have to strip it back & when they are happy, they will (should) send a registered spark to test, sign off & issue a certificate of compliance.

Anyone got any more advice on an extractor fan? I read that if the bathroom has an openable window, it doesn't need one. Can anyone confirm that?

That’s incorrect; a bathroom doesn’t have to have an opening window but must have an extractor fan even if it does.

 

[gspace]

Just an update:

Rang building control today, they're coming to do a commencement inspection tomorrow. Cost is £180.95 and covers all subsequent inspections until completion.

Apparently, as the soil stack I've installed does not make a new connection to the sewer, I was ok to serve a Building Notice rather than have to go the regularization route, which is more expensive and laborious (requires full plans).

I'll keep the thread updated as I imagine there will be others who will benefit from hearing of my experience. Personally, I'm a bit scared about building control coming to inspect my house. I guess it's natural to be scared of anyone who can force you to spend lots of money on your own house! But, all in all, I hope they will be able to give good advice and help me, rather than destructively criticise... And as Richard points out, it makes financial sense if it means buyers have less bargaining chips to ask for lower prices.

Wish I'd got them in before I started now, but you live and learn. Wish me luck!

 

[Richard C]

Wish me luck!

Good luck & do let us know how you get on. Hopefully you'll find they aren't really the enemy you may think but, like anyone doing their job, they don't like to be jerked around!