Bathroom zones

[riveralt]

Anyone help with this one because i'm getting differing views from building control.

There is a bathroom with an airing cupboard containing a hot water tank. There is a door to the cupboard. The airing cupboard partition forms one part of the shower wall.

There is a 6mm t&e cable comes into the airing cupboard enroute to the shower. There is no isolator on the circuit so I was going to break into the cable in the airing cupboard and use it to house a 45A DP switch

Normally I would fit a 10mm t&e cable for shower size flexibility but that is not possible here and the customer will have to downsize his shower.

The Consumer unit has the usual mcb protected circuits with sockets upstairs. sockets downstairs, lighting upstairs, lighting downstairs and a water heater. It is controlled by a 100amp dp switch. The circuits are protected by a 30mA RCD. The only problem is trying to find a 40A vynchier MCB.

The regulations state that zone 2 extends in a circular manner 600mm from the thickness of the partition.

Is an airing cupboard with door situated in a bathroom/shower room within the bathroom zones or is it treated as a separate room?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I would have said that if the door requires a tool to open it (and any handle which you have to turn is a tool) it would count as outside the zones, but it's what the BCO thinks that counts, as there is no explicit definition in the regs.

If you're doing notifiable work for customers wouldn't it make more sense to be registered? Then it wouldn't matter what the BCO thinks.

 

[electronicsuk]

I would have said that if the door requires a tool to open it (and any handle which you have to turn is a tool) it would count as outside the zones, but it's what the BCO thinks that counts, as there is no explicit definition in the regs.

Although 'tool' is not explicitly defined, I'd say a door handle probably isn't in the spirit of the regs. I'd say a lock with key as a minimum, but what we think has very little bearing on the situation - you will more or less have to pander to the BCOs every whim.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Try rotating the square bar inside the mechanism without a handle, and you will soon realise that the handle is a lever.

And a lever is a tool.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Purely, yes. But the intention of the "tool" thing is for access to electrical parts would be behind (for instance) a panel that is secured by screws. one would need a screwdriver tool to acess the electrical parts.

In the OP's case he could fit a lock with key on that door. That would comply and satisy the BCO.
Being forgetful he might omit to lock the door again once BCO has gone

 

[riveralt]

If you're doing notifiable work for customers wouldn't it make more sense to be registered? Then it wouldn't matter what the BCO thinks.

Thanks for the responses BAS and electronicsuk. Yes I am registered, but always learning.

My reading from the differing views of the BCO's is that this is a grey area and any decision made may need to be justified in the future.

The OSG figure 8.2 (plan) gives a picture of the layout of the bathroom I think I can resite the incoming cable at least 600mm inside the cupboard, then it doesn't matter whether the door is locked or not.

Failing that I will just resort to plan B and fit a pull cord switch in the outside zone - more time consuming but less hassle.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Implement the most appropriate solution, whether you and the BCO agree on whether it is notifiable or not. Your duty is to do the best by your client, not to compromise what you do to placate a BCO.

Then notify it, even if you don't think it's necessary.

 

[ericmark]

first I look at diagram (f) which shows zones do extend around a partition. Second I look at the door. Which side is it hinged? Assuming for a minute hinged opposite side to shower then next question must be could you or would anyone be likely to shower with the door open?

With any bathroom we can safely assume people will not shower with main door open however within the room one could find a door is never closed.

Put a device on the door that needs a key or tool to open and no problem but without any lock on the door I think likely it would be considered as if the door was not there.

If door hinges on bath side then height of door and ceiling need to be considered. If the door is floor to ceiling then it is an effective barrier and it is likely to be more than 0.6 meters wide so OK.

However if not to ceiling then most doors are less than 2.25 meters high so it will not count.

So normal method is to fit a lock to the door or use a pull switch inside the cupboard.

The main thing is to give reasons and some common sense is required. A locked door is same as a bath panel screwed into place. The house holder can remove the screws and remove bath panel or leave door unlocked but a risk assessment would normally consider it as being unlikely.

So in same way as I have given not only what I think one can do but documented why you must do same to LABC and give some reasoning behind what you say.

Could even place whole isolator in a locked box? Although to me the isolator is for emergency disconnection Table 53.2 gives a list of what can be used for each function and although a Plug and socket can be used for isolation it can't be used for emergency switching because it would be too slow and if not for emergency then to isolate one could just as easy lock off at the consumer unit.

So any shower isolator should be visible and obvious as to what it is so I would go for pull cord switch every time.

This is a personal opinion and I could be wrong but as I said before it is the reasoning through which is important so I hope I have given some pointers.

 

[ericmark]

As to BAS and tool I was dragged over the coals by HSE for leaving the key in a panel door. The plastic type which acts as a turn buckle and come with every panel. I had to remove all the plastic keys from all panels where once the door was opened there was access to live parts.

So from bitter experience unless you remove the handles then it does not come under the umbrella of needing a tool to open the door.

I still have some plastic keys in my tool box after having to remove them all.

You may argue with LABC but HSE is GOD and one does what ever they ask.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Purely, yes. But the intention of the "tool" thing is for access to electrical parts would be behind (for instance) a panel that is secured by screws. one would need a screwdriver tool to acess the electrical parts.

Oh please give me access to someone from the IET who describes himself as an engineer and wishes to deny that a lever is a tool.

I don't do spirit, I don't do intention, I do letter of, and if the same engineer would like to justify sloppiness and imprecision in engineering oriented documentation I'll discuss that with him too.

A lever is a tool.

A door handle is a lever.

If they have made a mistake then they should put it right, but until they do a door handle is a tool.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

As to BAS and tool I was dragged over the coals by HSE for leaving the key in a panel door. The plastic type which acts as a turn buckle and come with every panel. I had to remove all the plastic keys from all panels where once the door was opened there was access to live parts.

So from bitter experience unless you remove the handles then it does not come under the umbrella of needing a tool to open the door.

Nonsense - it just means that in that case you should not have left the tool needed to open the door in position.

 

[martinxxxxxx]

Try rotating the square bar inside the mechanism without a handle, and you will soon realise that the handle is a lever.

And a lever is a tool.

That is pure comedy gold, it is simply correct but hilarious; as no-one, bar your good self I wager, would commonly describe a door handle as such. I should think. But that pure simplicity of the interpretation of a tool plays fantastically well to an engineering audience, especially me I def LOL when I read it. You can't argue the fact it is strictly speaking a tool. You could go on the engineering comedy circuit if you had more of this material.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

That is pure comedy gold, it is simply correct but hilarious;

It's correct then.

And simplicity is the hallmark of good design and good engineering.

as no-one, bar your good self I wager, would commonly describe a door handle as such.

Au contraire - anybody with even a basic knowledge of mechanical engineering (O-Level/GCSE Physics/Mechanics/Applied Mathematics etc) would, if made to think about it, realise that the function of a door handle is indeed that of a lever.

But that pure simplicity of the interpretation of a tool plays fantastically well to an engineering audience

And so it should, because purity and simplicity should lie at the heart of all good engineering.

And since the Wiring Regulations are written by The Institution of Engineering and Technology, we must assume that they are written from engineering principles.

You can't argue the fact it is strictly speaking a tool.

I agree, so look at what the regulations say about a tool.

You could go on the engineering comedy circuit if you had more of this material.

Ah - but could I be as funny as this?