Baxi Barcelona Lockout

[DP]

Simply because thermistor may not be the cause of malfunction.

13 bedroom house? What is the boiler output? Can you look at the timer and post how you use it? How many motorised valves. Any rads with TRVs?

Looks like a boiler (undersized) fitted to old (and dirty) installation. How old is the boiler. Are the pipes plastic or copper. How old id the installation. Are the double panel rads fitted with fins?

Pump is cuffed. Shaft is no longer just turning in the bearing- it is now turning as well as rattling round the enlarged bearing bore. Usually happens when system water is rich with sediment

 

[richiereynolds]

ChrisR: it does sound a bit like that but maybe not erratic enough, I think I'm going to have to do a clean by the sounds of it and then if it's still doing it replace the pump. Can I test it in a basin?

DP: Boiler output is 75000Btu/hr with the jumpers on, 100000 with them off. I'd been using the timer to keep it 20 deg most of the day in a large living room and on and off a couple of times during the night for a couple of hours. Heats the hot water for an hour before we get up, before tea time and before bedtime.
During my boiler problems though I simply set the control to manual "on" to simplify things and just test if the boiler can regulate the water temperature at all (which at the time it couldn't).
2 motorised valves (honeywell control unit). 8 rads have TRVs, 4 don't. 9 rads are doubles most of which have fins.
A small bathroom (above the boiler and containing the hot tank) and the two top floor bedrooms have no rads. They aren't used the minute. They will need rads eventually though. House is about 2500 sq feet.
I think the boiler is about 3 years old but the heating system looks like its been built up over the last 20 years.
It's been working great since Saturday mind you.

Thanks for the advice guys, I think the clean out would be a good first step, cheers, Richard.

 

[ihamilton]

unbeleivable! An entire forum dedicated to Barcelona problems! And I thought I was the only one!

My strory is very similar. Worked well for the first 2 years then it went into lockout. fortunately in this instance the problem was diagnosed quickly and the PCB was replaced.

However, this year (2.5 weeks ago to be exact) the damn boiler started playing up again.

First it went into lockout both overheating and failure to ignite. Engineer came out, took a few notes then left. What do we pay these guys for. We are on a maintainance contract, I waited in all afternoon. he arrives, takes a few notes then leaves. I'd like to say it was OK and I had nothing better to do, but like most people, I do work!

Anyway, the problem persisted. Engineer No 2 comes out, cleans the probes and installs new door seals. The problem persists.

The same engineer returns to discover he left the old seals in the chamber and there was the problem. Well, can you guess? The problem continues.

Not only is it still locking out now but the sonic boom on start up is getting to a heart stopping proportion.

Engineer No3 comes out and inform us that we need to get new burner unit. So hopefully the problem will be rectified but I am not holding out for any miracles.

Anyway, this morning after a half hour trying to get it started it decided to throw a new fault and trip the entire house electricity supply.

Thank you this site. I can now speak to the engineer next time he is out and ask him if he has done a complete check on the boiler and know what to ask!

 

[robh]

I've had lockout problems with my Suprima which led me to this forum.
When I saw the number of replies to this thread I got curious.
...and the problems I've been having seem to pale into insignificance relative to this..
I am amazed that in the 21st century the main manufacturers are still unable to make a reliable water heater. Just how difficult can it be? And while they add safety features to satisfy the do gooders in the so called health and safety departments, they seem to create increasingly more unreliable boilers. This in turn has led more unqualified people to mess with an appliance that they simply should not be messing with, in order to avoid paying out large amounts of cash to a seemingly huge population of incompetent plumbers and heating engineers. ...and I am just as guilty....
The manufacturers should be strung up for their policy of being as unhelpful as possible over the phone, having non existent technical support (which might explain some of the design faults and poor engineering) and charging ludicrous prices for parts (£4 for an O-ring - that makes Jap motorcycle spares look cheap)
I wish Miele made boilers - they'd be expensive but they'd bl***y well work.

 

[boxster]

rob h.

i have been fitting boilers for years and i have never found a good boiler its stupid. I wont say any names but people have told me that they dont want to make boilers that work as they want you to repair them its a money making scam, it keeps people like me making money but for poor folk its not on at all. I mean look at the baxi fires for the bbu, the ebony ect... how many burners do you go through a year, i fit around 50 a year and they only last 2 years... also when i fit new gas fires, top makes also and i see the customers face they look so happy when they see there fire burning away and when your explaining how to work the fire what you should be saying is sorry love this fire will be broke in 2 years time and you wont be able to get the parts for them in 5 years time, your being ripped off!

just remember the suprima has a spillage button that pops up... its pink look for it and press it back down, thats the major cause of problems, what am i doing i am giving away trade secrets lol
f*ck*ng joke!

 

[robh]

boxster
Does your username reflect the car you drive?
If so then QED!!!!

 

[boxster]

yep i own a porsche boxster i use the same username for all forums, but yer i do own a boxster

 

[Bully]

Even though I am not a Baxi qualified engineer (so please don't take my word for what follows) I feel it my duty to post a reply as when I was in the pit of despair with my Baxi this forum helped a lot.

I had a boiler which;
1) Started making a noise on start up audible three streets away
2) then developed a drip from the casing
3) then refused to stay on even though the ignition was lighting the gas

I assumed the noise was normal and the leak was from the condensate overflow, which was pretty full of grey gunk. More of this later!
As I had no heat at all I downloaded the manual which told me to check the thermostat and the cut outs (little red and black jobs stuck on to the outlet pipe and inlet air vent. These were fine.
The manual also suggested checking for an open circuit from the dry flow monitor switch - a device which cuts off the gas when there is no flow through the boiler either because the boiler is dry or because all the thermostatic rad valves are shut. (It is located at the exit point from the combustion box and connects to the curved outlet pipe) If the switch is open circuit it advised changing the PCB (the expensive last resort - I spent two solid days just before the last cold snap desperately looking for a heating supply shop with one in stock- luckily unsuccessful as the pcbs were fine)
Anyway, I was about to give up and buy a load of logs when I though I'd try simulating a dry flow fault by short circuiting the switch - lo and behold the boiler fired up and stayed up (thus achieving hero status domestically)
As I understand the manual, the logic was reversed - open circuit bad, short circuit good being the way it worked in practice. It may be a difference between the Barcelona and the 100he but it is a little perverse to change the logic (if I am right).
Flushed with success I thought I'd try to sort the noise and leak. To cut a long story short, the root cause was a defective seal on the combustion chamber which was letting gas out into the boiler casing. This gas was condensing causing the leak and upsetting the airflow leading to the noise.
A temporary roll of aluminium foil replacing the draught excluder type seal cured both problems pro tem while I ordered the proper kit.
So my advice is check the seals on the combstion chamber regularly - I think the basic design is good but let down by some components which are not up to the job.
pip pip
[/list]

 

[ellie1997]

well, after ANOTHER call out I had enough. I wrote to baxi who basically called us liars. The problem arose because we have british gas celsia cover because Baxi took too long to come out and repair, with having kids we needed heat and british gas could be here same day. Baxi said because THEY hadnt been out to the boiler obviously there wasnt a problem....

so, undeterred I called British gas and asked for a printout of all our callouts in the last 2 years. The poor girl at the call center was stunned and said there was over 30 and we should consider a new boiler. when I told her this one was only 2 and a half there was a silence on the other end of the phone. "i see your problem" she said " leave it with me".

2 days later I had a telephone call from a british gas engineer. he told me that this had gone on long enough and yes baxi should offer assistance here, however, he said because we were under Celsia cover THEY would fight out corner! Yay!!

He told me (in confidence! lol!) baxi knew of a problem with the Barcelona boiler, to the extent a replacent part was available. This was a very "secret" part though that few know about and Baxi dont like admitting. mr gas man knows about this part and can ring Baxi and request it. problem solved!

gas man is coming on wednesday to asses the situation and see if it does indeed need this part Baxi do not like suppling....

Incidentally, I was told by one source when engineers fix Baxi Boilers to housing association properties they are issued with spares from the off as most new boilers fail to work on instillation......

 

[Phil B]

I also own a Barcelona, which is developing the same lock out problems listed by several others, although not the noise issue. But for those who are suffering from the ‘Big Bang’, I was extremely interested to have heard (from a very reliable source!) That Baxi are running sound tests at Liverpool University Acoustic department. My source told me that they where trying to work out why it was making the explosive sounds! Is this some sort of admission by Baxi that they have produced a lemon! As for the rest of us I’m sure Trading Standards would make a case out of this obviously faulty boiler, given the amount of feed back on this site alone.
Any thoughts?

 

[ubique]

I have followed all the threads on the Barcelona lockout problem, tried all the suggested fixes but still I have a boiler that shuts down when I need it most. Lockout light stays on, does not flash. I have sat by the boiler for ages waiting for it to lockout, when it does I switch off at the boiler, wait a minute then switch back on, boiler ignites, no problem; except that if it has to work hard, it will go out again, often about 4 times a day. So where do we go from here? I am thinking maybe I should just buy a new Control PCB and hope that cures the problem. Its got be cheaper than calling out an engineer who will undoubtedly tell me thats what I need anyway, and charge me a packet whether he is right or wrong. Jaundiced view? Nah, realistic mate!

 

[MCLAYTON]

After a week of having cut out problems with my Barcelona System boiler I decided the time had come to call Baxi out, only to find that they wouldn’t because I didn’t have a contact with them! I called out a local Corgi registered plumber, who after a further week came out.
After playing about with the boiler for an hour and a half with no joy, then called the Baxi hotline! Then I knew we had problems! He checked a couple of connections on the ignition PCB, and then checked 240v to the pump to find no voltage. I had already checked the pump myself and was confident it was OK. I noticed he was not using his multimeter correctly so after showing him how to check 240v myself we got a reading! Back to square one with me feeling even less confident in him.
After more time with him scratching his head, I told him that when I had pushed the valve on the expansion vessel water came out. He said that only air should come out and explained to me how the vessel worked. Sure enough the vessel was faulty! I ordered one the following day which he said for me to fit myself as it was easy enough, and to let him know if it did the job.
Well it didn’t and I called him and left a message for him to ring me back. After 4 days with no call from him, I called Baxi myself for help with no joy.Tthen I found this site and saw all everyone else’s problems!
As an engineer myself all be it in copiers I decided to attempt to fault find the problem myself armed with certain remedies on this site!
I found dry joints on the ignition pcb and re-soldered them but with no joy, the board was arcing and had to be changed which I did, this still didn’t cure the fault, which I had now decided was down to a flow problem since on fire up when cold, the boiler would boil causing a hissing sound from within the heat exchanger and cut out, then it would not restart until cooler on which the same thing would happen.
I then stripped down the flow meter and found debris on the actuator which I thought was the problem. Once cleaned away I fired up the boiler again but still no joy, this time I got the red overheat lock out light come on. I rechecked flow on the flow switch by checking continuity on the 2 pin connector with my own multi meter and sure enough I wasn’t always getting a constant signal. Was it the pump I thought?
Well it was turning, but was it turning fast enough? I went to get a new one at HRPC and while I was there I spoke to a tradesman who was getting parts himself. I explained my plight and that I had been without the boiler for 3 weeks with no help from a plumber or Baxi themselves and he said to speak to a chap in his organisation who had experience on the Barcelona System. Great I thought!
I didn’t purchase a pump but did get a new heat unit door seal, ignition switch and humidity sensor since they were not so expensive and had previously been fitted by Baxi on the 1st annual service.

I rang the guy up and told him what I had done, changed, and checked! I had even stripped the flow in and out of the heat exchanger and remove further debris in the rear boiler chamber! He said he too thought it was down to flow since the heat was not getting away from the boiler! This was also further clarified by the fact that for quite some time my radiators were not as hot and some didn’t get even warm!
He said he knew what the problem was, that it was a dirty filter, which I replied where’s the filter?
It is situated in the return pipe marked “flow ruturn”under the pump. Loosen the nut on the brass fitting, remove the silver retaining clip to allow the pipe to drop slightly, and lift out the filter. Sure enough I did this and the filter was there and absolutely completely blocked.
The filter looks like a small flour sieve when cleaned. I replaced this filter, refilled the system with new water and turned on. URIKA the boiler fired up with full steam and kept going and going! Within 15 minutes every radiator in the house was red hot. It has now been ok for over week now with no problem! I still haven’t heard from the original plumber I called, but don’t care now, since he hasn’t sent me a bill. My wife is now complaining that the house is too hot, I cant win!
It seems strange to me that Baxi couldn’t advise me to check this filter since it is only very small and can easily get blocked and should be one of the first things to check! It should be removed and cleaned a least once a year according to the engineer who gave me the info.
P.S Lock off the flow and return pipes under the boiler and then drain the system of most of the water by turning the pressure release valve, before loosening the nut to remove the filter!!
I hope this further piece of info to this site helps any one else with similar Barcelona lock out or overheat problems. Regards M.C

 

[ellie1997]

bumped for yet another person suffering barcelona problems...

 

[uncleben]

BAXI barcelona
I have installed many of them and encountered many problems. Baxi do not honour thier garantees and this boiler has destroyed thier reputation.
The main problem with the unit is the condensate trap and this screaming.
Due to imperfections in the castings of the heat exchanger , localised hot spots occur which causes a screaming noise through whats known as kettling. this in turn oxidises the heat exchanger surface which leads to the deposits of aluminium oxide in the condensate trap. eventually this will lead to a hole in the heat exchanger. Baxi will deny this but its true.
I have changed two of them which flooded my customers houses free of charge. The other problem with lock out is caused by the condensate trap
in that when the levell of water is about to discharge , condensation on the top surface of the trap makes contact with the electrical probe and locks out the boiler. this is a safety device in case the condaensate drain gets blocked. This problem is exasperated by two other design faults.
The first is the oxidation of the heat exchanger and the resultant oxide sludge which buils up in the trap, this can get invaded by micro orginismns creating a sort of jelly which gums the trap up. The second problem is that unless the working pressure at the gas valve is at 18.75mb
the boiler will suffer from explosive ignition which causes a sudden increase in pressure within the trap soaking the sensor probs resulting in lock out. A simple remedy for the problems associated with the trap would be to lower the central deviding plate in the trap and thus lowere the average levell of water. Again dont even consider talking to baxi , I have stoppod using thier products and I can only say they have cost me dear and that I would never use them again. HOPE THIS HELPS /Got up today and my baxi is at lock out , well suffice to say it was the temperature sensor on the flow pipe , easy to change there are two of them at the top of the boiler when you remove the casing you can see them, one black and one red,cost £ 12.00 for two. Another thought occured to me that it seems people are changing thier pcb,s for a past time. The cuase of this failure is probably the continual lockout due to the condensate trap design. Its like switching something on and off several hundred times, it don,t like it. for those of you who are technically minded if you get a fault , phone baxi service number and speak to technical, I know the boiler is useless but at least you might be able to squeeze some more life out of it.

CORGI INSTALLER 30 YEARS EXP

 

[timwickington]

I have written to this posting group a couple of times about my Baxi Barcelona (bang on startup, whine/turbine run-time noise, lockouts, etc.) but am amazed that we have 5 pages of people just like me... and that is just the poeple that have found/written to this posting.

My question for the forum (hopefully the guy who posted before me can answer cos he sounds like he knows more than most about these) is this... I have a Barcelona that doesn't use the standard 1.5m flue but the extended two-pipe flue to throw the white plumes out through the gableend of the house... if I wanted to (and I do!) to replace the Barcelona with a new, quiet, reliable boiler is there on eon the market that can use the two-pipe system? The pipes are now built into studwalls going up through the house to conceal them you see...

Thanks, Tim