Boiler tripping RCD

Seems a little odd, one would expect an electrician to use an insulation tester and clamp-on ammeter and be able to work out the problem rather quickly. I can see the problem with DIY but not an electrician.

The testers can use 250, 500, or 1000 volt which can damage a boiler so not the thing for untrained use. But you have already worked out the area of the fault, so why has he not found it, are you sure he is an electrician?

He should be using something like this
610hYyDotxL._AC_SL1000_.jpg
 
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Since my return from the Falklands in 1990 it seems the RCD has been a problem, I am not sure when the ELCB-v came out, (earth leakage circuit breaker) but it was short lived the 50 volt that should trip them could all too easy be shorted out, and we went to the ELCB-c which has changed names many times RCCB, RCB etc. They were in domestic to start with only used when you had an earth rod, and were 100 mA, and at 100 mA they did not seem to cause too much of a problem.

Then it was decided that was too high, and they need to trip at 30 mA, the problem is any AC cable will always leak some power to earth, capacitive and inductive linking means there is always a little, and although the RCD says 30 mA, it is designed not to trip with less than 15 mA and much trip with 30 mA and at 150 mA must trip in 40 mS on either positive or negative part of wave form, so we are told the total leakage with not fault should not exceed 9 mA.

Sounds good, but to measure 9 mA you need a clamp-on meter with a 0.001 amp scale, and mine is 0.1 amp scale, so even if I wanted to, I can't check under 9 mA. However my RCD tester if over 9 mA would likely not show the RCD holding in at 15 mA.

But clearly once tripped you can't measure 9 mA anyway, so the other tool is the insulation tester, which is rather important, as the RCD measures current in and current out, it does not measure current to earth, it just assumes if two don't equal then it must be going to earth, and in the main it goes line to earth. (Live is both the phase and neutral, so to differentiate with single phase we call it Line) However it can also go neutral to earth, and this causes a problem, as the more current that is drawn the bigger the voltage difference between neutral and earth so the more current that will flow, so bit of wet bread in a toaster can cause RCD to trip when kettle is used, because when kettle used there is a bigger difference between neutral and earth.

So we test neutral as well as line, and we use 500 volt DC to test with, but DC does not have capacitive or inductive linking, so it is not 100%, but finds most faults, however some boilers have a filter to stop spikes on the supply for doing damage, and 500 volt can damage the filter, so we normally use 250 volt only with anything using electronic controls.

Although some items can cause problems, freezer with auto defrost often the defrost heater only works once a day, so easy to miss, but in the main only the line is switched, so a neutral to earth reading will still find it.

Things like 3 port valves can cause problems, as they have a diode in them, so can cause DC to flow, but in the main DC stops a RCD working it does not trip it, that is why today many boilers say you must use a type A
18th_RCD_TypeA.jpg
RCD which can take 6 mA of DC and not a type AC
18th_RCD_TypeAC.jpg
RCD I know Bosch boiler instructions ask for type A, with electric cars type B
18th_RCD_TypeB.jpg
is often required.

It seems odd that we still in the UK fit type AC, but we do. My consumer unit only changed last year, but still all type AC RCBO's.

Because of the 9 mA limit there is a limit as to how many circuits can be put on one RCD, there is also safety, clearly if something other than lights gives us a shock we don't want to be plunged into darkness, and it is common to split lights upper and lower floor, but with sockets it is better to split side to side, so in an emergency you don't need extension leads up/down stairs, and it also means in most property a better earth loop impedance. But the consumer unit is often designed with just two RCD's so it is impossible to split sockets and lights without having either lights fail when sockets trip or all sockets and all lights on same RCD.

However we do have high integrity consumer units, these allow one or two circuits to be supplied from a RCBO, this is a MCB and RCB combined, so essential services are not lost with a general fault, but it is down to the designer to decide how the circuits are split. In may house I have all RCBO's so every circuit is independent.

It seems you have had electricians trying to cure the problem, and a new consumer unit, if I had a problem then I would look at having the circuit feeding boiler on its own RCBO so only that circuit is lost, that may include a bank of sockets, but at least most the house continues to work.

With a fault with my daughters house it did take some time to find, socket screw was touching a neutral wire where some one had damaged the insulation when stripping, and it made and broke as walking along the floor, so there are some faults that can be hard to find, but the random changing of components to find the fault is clearly not required, and the minimum acceptable ohms to earth is 1000000 or 1MΩ and you were quoting far lower figures.

I could understand why a DIY guy can't find the fault, but should be easy for an electrician with all the testers, so what has gone wrong?
 
Hi. Quick update - obviously the electrician we had used wasn’t that interested in fixing the issue, and simply refused to look at the boiler saying it was a thing for a heating engineer, even if it was electricity related.

So with COVID rampant and two small children in the house all the time I just bought a load of oil heaters and we all wore jumpers!

Now things have calmed down and kids are back at school (thank the lord), I’m planning on getting this sorted.

so the boiler in question is a potterton suprima 60 - however engineer who looked at it thinks the pcb is one of the better ones.

so should I get a good electrician out to isolate the boiler and then investigate, or is a heating engineer a better bet?
 
Giving this a pilot bump.

Should I a heating engineer be able to isolate the electric faults, or do I need to find a better electrician?
 
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Do you have a y plan or an s plan system?

Does it still trip when calling for both hot water and heating or just one or the other
 
It’s y-plan I think (single 2 port valve), and it trips whenever the boiler fires up (about 2 minutes after ignition but it’s not always the same exact time). Regardless if it’s water or heat.

heat engineer has looked at boiler and electrician has looked at electrics around boiler (but not inside)
 
A Y plan is 1 x 3 port valve, an S plan has 2 or more 2 port valves
 
Double check the wiring, make sure there are no loose cables and no split sheaths.

Sure there is no leaks in the boiler when it's on, dripping onto the electrical circuit or something.

It's off that the fault is intermittent in terms of its time, if it was a direct short it would happen instantly
 
Yeah it’s definitely not immediate - boiler has power now and is fine. It’s only when there is demand for heat/hot water.

heating engineer who came out in Jan checked all the wiring and didn’t see any leaks.

what about getting British Gas out on a fixed price repair?
 
That's odd as based on that I would say it's the motor on top of the valve, but they are permanently powered in one direct or the other...

Wondering if it could be a faulty pump.

Basically there are 2 things that come on when the boiler is called to heat, the pump and 3 way valve.

It must be one of these 2 which is causing the trips
 
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Last bloke replaced the pump and it didn’t change a thing
 
Last bloke replaced the pump and it didn’t change a thing

Doesn't mean it's not faulty.

There is only 2 things that switch on when called for heat, the motor on the 3 port valve or the pump.
 
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