Builders charging for extras

[Gregory01]

Hi everyone

I'm undergoing my first project and just need a bit of advice on builders charging for extras. I am only a week in, we have the foundations dug and I have had an email from the builder advising there will be some extra charges. I was given a quote to do foundations, drainage, shell, roof and install windows.

The extras they have mentioned are
1/ shuttering of trench sides and pipes as requested by the building inspector.
2/ deep drain issues that need to be done to the Side of the house.
3/ rodding access to the internal soil stack.

Does this sound reasonable or are they trying it on?

My thoughts are as follows

1/ the shuttering of the pipes would I imagine be standard and should have been included in the quote. There are a couple of areas which need shuttering on the side of the trench. 1 of these could not have been foreseen at quote stage so I am happy to pay for this. The other and larger of the 2 could have been foreseen so I'm not too keen to pay for this.
2/ the deep drain issues are something which would have been obvious at quotation stage. There is a manhole right next to where we are installing a toilet and the builders knew the drains were deep here and the toilet would go into them.
3/ the rodding access was something the building inspector asked for. I would imagine it would only be adding a cheap part anyway but again surely if they have quoted for sorting out drainage this should include making sure it's to the building inspectors specification.

Please let me know what your thoughts are so I can decide a reasonable way to proceed. I'm on a tight budget and am just concerned that I don't want them adding all sorts on which should have been included to help bring the value of the job up.

Thanks

 

[Johnmelad]

A quotation is a promise to do work at an agreed price. It should set out what work will be done for the agreed price.

If you were given a quotation you should not be asked to pay extra unless you asked the trader to do extra work or the trader had to do extra work in order to do a satisfactory job and they couldn't reasonably have known that they would need to do this work when they gave the quotation.

 

[noseall]

First thing to establish is do you have a detailed drawing or specification?

I have done hundreds of extension quotes based upon drawings from numerous architects. One in particular stands out as his drawings are awash with details, sections, large scale specific details etc.

If all I have been given is a planning app' set with a basic floor plan and elevation drawings then I often hand the dawings back with the comment that an ambiguous drawing only deserves an ambiguous quote.

That said, the builder is responsible for checking on site. He should be expected to establish drain depth if there is an inspection chamber to look at. this sounds like a cop-out to me.

Another thing that a lot of builders do is go in cheap, get the job then load it with extras once they have got their feet under the table. You need to immediately set out your stall with this guy or else you are going to get hammered.

 

[noseall]

A quotation is a promise to do work......based upon an accurate drawing or specification.....at an agreed price. It should set out what work will be done for the agreed price.

 

[Gregory01]

Any other opinions on this. Just had an email from the builders with a breakdown of costs;

1/ shuttering required £462
2/ removal and clearance of footpath £223.13
3/ deep drain issues £1,248
4/ rodding eye access to soil stack £282
5/ extra depth of concrete to 2 storey side only (100mm) £465.38

Obviously there is now an extra cost for concrete (which hasn't been done yet). To me the above seem extremely excessive. What are your thoughts?

 

[cannonfoder]

a quote is a quote ases on the works needed But if theres extra works needed then yes the customer has to sort this with builders.

but in my book its a fair call if there is more work to doo like the rodding point then it is more parts an more time out of the job its self = more money.. even if the parts are only £20 he can still charge for the labor depends of how much graft there is in putting it in.

As for the deep drainage you check your plans to see just what was speced
but there's allot of things you need to think about like just how deep there having to go anything over 1m deep should have shoring like trench box or board an brace are they hiring in plant? is there any extra manholes extra pipe/fittings ect more back fill things like that

As for the shuttering yer it can be abit of a pig to judge it till your in the ground an the BC has had a look an told you what they want to see
shuttering isnt all that dear but agen its the labor for the extra works

we have been on footings jobs that BC have asked for extra depth in the trench an more rebar to suite ect and cost an extra £900 if the builders was asked to keep footing the bill then we will out of the game in no time


Its just one of them things mate sorry

 

[r896neo]

What is this deep drain business? Unless he has had to install some sort of sump and pumping arrangement for some strange reason he should have checked this and known about it at the time of quoting.

I agree with noseall regarding taking a stand. Even if its all genuine it not a bad idea to let him see that you will be on the ball about extras and not just whip out the cheque book straight away which would be a slippery slope

 

[Gregory01]

Thanks for the replies so far.

Firstly regards the rodding point. From the sounds of things this could be classed as a reasonable extra so I'm happy to pay for this. I will point out that the rodding point is in the corner of the house which will all be opened up so there is no making good required at this point. It will literally just involve putting an access point so I feel the cost for this still seems a lot for what will likely be an hours work at most.

The foundations have gone to 110cm rather than 100cm. I'm not sure why as it wasn't requested by the building inspector but they have done it anyway. I have calculated this will be an extra .9 of a cubic meter and a quick check online says this should cost circa £100 plus vat for 1 cubic m. I'm happy to pay this but not the £450 odd they have quoted for the extra.

Lastly the deep drain issue is because they have had to dig down 2m to a drain as we are adding a toilet. They were aware of this beforehand and even looked down the drain. Now for some reason they seem to be making an issue out of it and want to charge for having to dig so deep. Again I feel this should have been included and even if it wasn't it took a few hours with a digger and they want £1200 odd for it. Pic below

Untitled

• Gregory01
• 20 Jun 2014
• 2

 

[cannonfoder]

sorry to say it but it is what ever the builder says it is in some cases but your better off calling the guys thats supplying the concrete is it ready mix or are they mixing it on site his price seems abit high.

as the drainage he probs thought he could just chuck in the pipe at half hight or what ever into the side of the man hole but if BC have been out then there bang on it see the extra graft ect he wants to charge for as he was just hoping for a easy life.

ever builder i know adds on abit into the price ect for (just in case) moments
and as for a machine we hire out our machine with a operator for about £220 for a day an probs to run that draiage with the rodding point your looking at about £700/£800 all in give or take there our price maybe not your guys but there you go.

 

[cannonfoder]

the deeper he goes in the ground theres the price of the muck away an the concrete to put back in the ground plus the labor for it all.

we only got abit deeper if needed if the ground is soft or sandy chalk ect you can get away with more rebar into the footings but its down to the BC really

that side of things is out of your control sorry as if it isnt what they want to see they can and will shut you down

 

[r896neo]

He is trying it on with the concrete, thats just wrong which makes me wonder if he is trying it on with the other things too.

If the rodding access is going into an existing stack its more than an hours work and may require some of it being dismatled and rebuilt but if its going into a new stack thats a bit of a ridiculous amount.

The deep drain thing is his mistake especially if he looked into the Existing chamber before and knew how deep it was.

If you price a job to connect a new entry to a manhole and price it low in the hope that 'chucking a pipe in half height' which wouldn't pass building regs will be ok instead of pricing to go down to invert level then your a dope.

Its his mistake and whilst a gesture o fgoodwill on your part for some of the cost, (perhaps the machine hire costs) may help keep the ball rolling 1200 quid is taking the **** a bit for what should have already been quoted for.

 

[Gregory01]

Thanks again everyone.

I am drawing up a list of what we are happy to cover and what we feel is unfair. I want to make sure I am as reasonable as possible on this so just want a bit of advice on how much to go back to him for a couple of parts.

1. Shuttering. Can anyone give me a ballpark figure on how much this should cost per linear meter? There are a couple of sections to do, is it labour intensive or a matter of a few hours to put together?

2. Rodding access pipe. The pipe is in a boxed in section of the wall. Any idea on how long it would take to knock out the boxing, cut out a section of the pipe and fit a new section with access? ps. the boxing in section doesn't need to be put back as this will all get sorted separately. Rough ideas on cost would be great.

Thanks again everyone.

 

[Gregory01]

just as an update to this if anyone is interested. I spent quite some time working out what I felt would be fair to offer.

On measuring for the concrete I noticed that on another part of the trench it was only 80cm deep so after discussing this with the builder he agreed to waive the extra charge for the concrete.

I explained to him in detail how I had arrived at my offer and that if I had mis calculated anything (ie cost of parts or estimated man hours to do the job then to let me know and we will re discuss). I based my calculations on £20 per hour for labour for each of the items I felt were fair he was charging for. Some may feel this was harsh but as I am certain he just plucked his figures out of the air and then added a few hundred pounds to them I feel it was justified.

Going forward I have asked him to make sure he doesn't just do extra work and then come up with a figure for it otherwise we end up in the same situation. The contract actually states he cannot charge for extra work unless he has first issued me with a quote and I have then given him the go ahead. If I wanted to be a complete arse I could have just refused to pay however I don't want him to be out of pocket I just want something which is fair to all parties. He will now call me, let me know what the extra is, how much it will cost etc before proceeding. This whole process hasn't been ideal so hopefully going forward we will not come across it again.

Thanks again to everyone who commented.

 

[limerockconstruction]

Its a bit hard to know exactly what was right and wrong, but some his charges do appear at the outset a bit ridiculous!

You've handled it well, good on you.