Builders Contract Questions

[Nathan110]

1. Lintels and existing timbers for roof arch are in bad condition. Contractually agreed to a dormer loft conversion with all construction material included.

Would this normally be expected for the contractor to cover and replace or can this be passed onto the client? The quote I'm getting from the contractor is extortionate!

 

[conny]

If the builder was unaware of the rotted timbers then, in my opinion (and I am not a builder), he would be within his rights to re-cost the job.
However, being an 'experienced' builder he should have stated in his contract that, if defects were later found that would have a material impact on the construction then further costs would be advised before continuing with the contracted work. Additional costs to be agreed by both parties before said work commences.

What does the wording in your contract actually say?

 

[Nathan110]

Very vague.

"company may vary the contract price which are different or in addition to those set out in the quotation at the specific request of the client or becsuse they have been required to complete additional work which was not anticipated at the time of quotation".

In a dormer loft conversion replacing rotten joists and a wall which has become unstable is acceptable under this definition. The quotes are extortionate now and of course don't agree to it.

 

[Nathan110]

The problem I have is they have the upper hand as payments are far in advance of work completed. 3 payments left for a project about 50% at best left. Saying warranty will not apply if I get a third party to do those bits. 1 stud wall for 4k? Replacing 4 window lintels in first floor for 4k? Replacing old ceiling joists for 4k? feel like they're taking advantage. But BCO said they do need replacing to me, but he seems very junior and seems to be trying to cover himself at the worry of going against what the builders point out...

 

[oldbutnotdead]

Bit naughty starting a 2nd thread on the same topic...best link to the other one.
Yes warranty claims get awkward if multiple contractors are involved-each will blame the other for any issues.
Those extra prices sound a bit steep- has builder given you a detailed quote for the extras (time and materials).
Those new ceiling joists for instance- even given current timber prices it's hard to see where 4k could legitimately go.
Problem you have is at the moment any half-decent builder is up to their neck in work so odds of getting anyone else in to do those bits competently at a more competitive price are low.
Couple of suggestions;
Is BCO private or LABC? Either way, get in touch with their supervisor re your concerns that he's over egging the pudding.
Ask builder for proper time and materials quotes for the extras, anonymise them & stick them up here, the more experienced may be able to gauge whether matey is ripping the p#ss or not

 

[JohnD]

1. Lintels and existing timbers for roof arch are in bad condition. Contractually agreed to a dormer loft conversion with all construction material included.

Your wording is unclear. Do you mean you signed a contract? What did you commit to do? Who is your counterparty, and what did they commit to do?

Is it a contract with an open-ended price commitment?

BTW you are not charged per word on here. There is no need to omit words.

 

[Nathan110]

Hi JohD. Apologies for it not being clear.

Yes I signed a contract for a hip to gable dormer loft conversion and an extension with plastering and new plasterboard of the 1st floor ceilings.

I've been told the poor state of the roof arch timbers and lintels is not something that was included as its impossible to know without taking everything off..

 

[JohnD]

I agree with @conny

I am not experienced with builders contracts, but I would hope that change control clauses would say that a change in scope has to be identified, and a revised price offered that can be accepted, rejected or negotiated, and what happens if it is not accepted.

If the contract doesn't say, I suppose you fall back on law of contract, and case law.

You may need legal advice.

 

[Nathan110]

That would seem sensible but there's nothing in the contract in that event. Common sense should dictate that if works pop up that need to be done it seems unfair to force the client to accept a quote even if after negotiation the client is unhappy with the final price. There should be scope to seek a third party to do that work for that element and that warranty should apply to all other elements excluding that particular aspect.

 

[Nathan110]

For example

This wall is now unstable as a result of knocking the other wall to accomdate the stairs going to loft.

There's no question about it. It's old breeze block and now rocks if you push it .

But £4,000 for a stud wall replacement??

 

[Nathan110]

I'm tempted to push that breeze block, take it all away and DIY it myself! They're trying to catch me out with the warranty for the whole works but I'm arguing it should just apply to this aspect only. That seems fair, no?

 

[kingandy2nd]

Play them at their own game. What does the contract say about the warranty?

Advise them in writing that you will be seeking alternative quotes for the work that is unrelated to your existing contract and that you will hold them liable for the warranty on their workmanship unless there is a direct and demonstrable reason why other works would invalidate their warranty.

 

[^woody^]

You can't imply additional work into a contract. Work content is normally specified and whilst "associated" works may be included, additional works certainly are not.

Contract terms have to be reasonable and fair. No clause that allows to vary costs unconditionally is fair, and so not enforceable. The only time such a condition would be reasonable is in situations where the work content is unknown, and even then additional work and additional costs must be agreed beforehand.

The BCO is not paying for the work so can't tell anyone what to do.

You will find it difficult going elsewhere for quotes or even getting the work done - what builder wants to go on a job with another builder working there? Even if you tried for quotes, any builder would be within his rights to hit you with claims for delays and time as you are preventing him from carrying on with his work and meeting his other commitments to you and others.

You seem to have numerous problems and made all the common mistakes - a crap designer, a crap or no specification, no clear detailing of the work or work content, no mutually agreed contract terms, and most significantly no provision by which additional works are quantified, valued or agreed. The end result is that the builder has you by the balls and does what he wants with your money and there is little you can do because ... you've actually agreed to it!

 

[Nathan110]

The BCO is not paying for the work so can't tell anyone what to do.

The building company have sent this email to the BCO:
"We have requested a building control visit and confirmation on the existing structure.

Could you please advise us, if we can leave it as it is or if it is mandatory to replace and redo the structures pointed at your last visit."

I was with him when he visited and just inspected briefly:
1. Existing 1st floor ceiling joists
2. Unstable breeze block wall
3. Lintels on windows

Is he within his remit to reply that it is mandatory to replace and if so: does he need to provide some evidence for that?

All these elements were pointed out to him by the builders and seems like he agreed just on inspection alone. Does he not need to have some substantial evidence and if not how can he back up his claims?

 

[Nathan110]

Or say it is mandatory...