building control & Part P

[ambrougham]

Hi Guys

Out of curiosity (but primarily because I might need to go down the Building Control route for some notifiable work fairly soon !) has anyone actually been there/done that and got anything close to a sensible response/result ? All I seem to be reading (here and elsewhere) is that there is still widespread confusion and/or misinformation being bandied around concerning their responsibilities if full plans or a building notice are submitted.

I believe that its quite clear from information on the ODPM site that having paid the appropriate fee, any inspection and testing that may be required is part of the deal and not some additional chargeable service or something that the applicant has to arrange. Indeed it is specifically NOT something that the applicant can arrange as I read it ! I have more than a sneaky suspicion that I'm likely to end up having a very similar discussion to that contained in this thread in the not to distant future so it would be useful to know if this route can actually work without too much hassle and/or lengthy debate. Apart from anything else, the last thing anyone needs is wound-up and well p*ssed off LBCOs coming round trying to find any reason to condemn the installation on principle or make life d@mn difficult just because they've been forced to fulfill their responsibilities So, are there any good news stories rather than horror stories !

--
Mike

___________________________
moderator

welcome to the forums ambrougham, but please read the forum rules

your post has been split

EDIT: Sorry, hadn't noticed the 1 month old post limit and I'd spent the best part of a couple of hours hunting around for info and/or an appropriate thread to make enquiries before posting on this thread containing horror stories ! Hmmmmm, just goes to show that you always get a nasty surprise when you don't read the regs properly I suppose

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Is the electrical work part of something else notifiable, e.g. extension, loft conversion, or just work that is either purely electrical (e.g. rewire) or part of something not otherwise notifiable (e.g. new kitchen)?

If you need LABC to approve "real" building work, then you need to decide how much you're prepared to **** them off by insisting they do what they should regarding the electrics - a Building Control inspector with a grudge can cause you no end of grief.

If they are only needed regarding electrical work then I'd say what do you have to lose by pushing them all the way?

 

[Mr Winston]

The quick and easy answer to your question is to contact your LABC and ask them the question - everyone else here is guessing what procedure they have.

 

[ambrougham]

The quick and easy answer to your question is to contact your LABC and ask them the question - everyone else here is guessing what procedure they have.

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the comments so far.

I know (or rather I think I know) what the procedure is (or should be), I was just enquiring if anyone else has actually gone through the motions and come out with a satisfactory result. If so then at least I would be able to demonstrate that the procedure does and has been seen to work *correctly* so to speak when the time for discussion comes. The problems appear to arise over Inspection, Certification and Test of the completed installation from reading various posts on here, the ODPM site and elsewhere. Both the Plans and Notice application form for my LBC department actually have an additional declaration box concerning Part P work which is worded as follows:

PART P - APPROVED DOCUMENT (ELECTRICAL SAFETY)
AS FROM 1st JANUARY 2005
An Electrical Installation Certificate and Schedule of Test Results,
issued by a competent electrical engineer, will be provided to the
Building Control office for any domestic/mixed use electrical
installation forming part of this application.

Signature: ................... Date: .................

This suggests that the applicant agrees (by signing the mandatory declaration above in addition to the normal signature/date etc. which is required on the form) that they will supply the necessary certificate(s) and test documentation and (by implication) are responsible for making the arrangements and for any costs involved. This is clearly wrong (IMHO) as the applicant is not in a position to provide or arrange such an inspection/test and no Competent Person is in a position to do the necessary work directly on his behalf either - only under contract to LBC. It also appears quite clear to me from the ODPM site that the applicant should not be expected/required to do this or pay additional costs over and above the standard application fee either.

I will, obviously, be having (no doubt lengthy !) discussions with LBC in due course but am simply gathering information and/or ammunition (for want of a better description) at this stage. The work would almost certainly be purely electrical although there is a very slim chance that some *real* building work may form a small part of the application as well.

--
Mike

 

[sijaysee]

who says that the applicant is not in a position to inspect and test their work.as far as im aware, if you do a job in your own house eg. adding a couple sockets to the ring and putting in some mains downlights in the lounge (not notifiable) you still should inspect and test and record the results on a minor works cert.Which is the bit that i dont think many people realise.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

You should, yes, but millions of people have done those things millions of times without testing, and not many bad things seem to happen as a result.

On a scale of 1 to things-to-make-sure-of-when-DIYing, positioning and securing ladders properly, using chainsaws and hand-held circular saws properly etc, come higher....

 

[ambrougham]

who says that the applicant is not in a position to inspect and test their work.as far as im aware, if you do a job in your own house eg. adding a couple sockets to the ring and putting in some mains downlights in the lounge (not notifiable) you still should inspect and test and record the results on a minor works cert.Which is the bit that i dont think many people realise.

I agree entirely that ANY work should receive some form of checking/inspection and most definitely (IMO) requires some level of testing (whether legally required or otherwise) but I was meaning in relation to Part P work and in particular to the provision of the appropriate certification and test documentation required by LBC. In that respect, the only reason for going down the LBC route is because the person(s) doing the work are not registered to self-certify and therefore, by definition, cannot certify/test the installation and provide the formal documentation. I'm not sure about Minor Works certificates as this is not something I have researched as yet but wouldn't this also need to completed by a registered Competent Person as well ? Maybe not ......

 

[sijaysee]

yea i agree.. i was just letting ambrougham know why that was in the declaration box. its because even though he cant self certify he is still supposed to be able to inspect and test. Whether this is to cover them i dont know. Basically it stops joe public from doing any work because when the homeowner pack comes out in 2007 there will have to be test results. So even when they dont get you with their "special locations" they have still got you anyway, unless you're joe public who has got a set of meggers etc. and can use them!!

 

[sijaysee]

but the thing is that i cannot yet self certify, but i can and must inspect and test work that i do, and if its in a kitchen, bathroom , outside or any other special location then i also have to fill out an application with LBC who then inspect first fix and completion

 

[ambrougham]

yea i agree.. i was just letting ambrougham know why that was in the declaration box. its because even though he cant self certify he is still supposed to be able to inspect and test. Whether this is to cover them i dont know. Basically it stops joe public from doing any work because when the homeowner pack comes out in 2007 there will have to be test results.

Interesting interpretation - I hadn't thought of looking at it that way.

So even when they dont get you with their "special locations" they have still got you anyway, unless you're joe public who has got a set of meggers etc. and can use them!!

....... Wanders off to rummage in the cupboard and comes back waving old but recently calibrated megger plus associated bits and pieces @ sijaysee

 

[sijaysee]

well done!!!

 

[Mr Winston]

You dont need to be on a self certification scheme to be able to test the installation - anybody with suitable knowledge, training and experience can test. Many electricians who are able to do this are not on any of the self cert schemes.

But many LABC's will ask for evdence of the testing persons ability to test and fill out the certificate (e.g. some sort of testing qualification)

 

[sijaysee]

correct. I did the EAL Level 2 VRQ course and passed ( oh yes i did Ban if you are there!!) so i have the qualification to join the NICEIC even though i am waiting to be assessed. But until then i have to notify LBC which would great to just carry on doing this , but its a pain to have to rely on them, and you have to fill out applications etc. and then theres the charges (£60) a time

 

[ban-all-sheds]

yea i agree.. i was just letting ambrougham know why that was in the declaration box. its because even though he cant self certify he is still supposed to be able to inspect and test.

That's on the form because that's what his miscreant LABC have chosen to do.

There is no legal basis on which they can insist on that, and the ODPM have clearly stated that LABCs who make such conditions should stop.

Whether this is to cover them i dont know. Basically it stops joe public from doing any work because when the homeowner pack comes out in 2007 there will have to be test results.

Don't hold your breath on that one...

So even when they dont get you with their "special locations" they have still got you anyway, unless you're joe public who has got a set of meggers etc. and can use them!!

....... Wanders off to rummage in the cupboard and comes back waving this fairly new but currently uncalibrated stuff @ sijaysee

 

[ban-all-sheds]

correct. I did the EAL Level 2 VRQ course and passed ( oh yes i did Ban if you are there!!)

Oh I'm here.

I find it incredible that someone could pass a course that meets the entry qualification for a competent person scheme (and therefore in the eyes of the public makes them an electrician) and yet not understand supplementary equipotential bonding, or know how to install a CU...