Cable Colours

[JohnW2]

Overload current: An overcurrent occurring in a circuit which is electrically sound.
Fault current: A current resulting from a fault.
Fault: A circuit condition in which current flows through an abnormal or unintended path. This may result from an insulation failure or a bridging of insulation. Conventionally the impedance between live conductors or between live conductors and exposed or extraneous conductive parts at the fault position is considered negligible.

Yes, I know (and so does BS7671!) ... BUT, as I keep saying, that does not cover all possibilities. Specifically, part of a circuit (particularly 'the load') may become electrically unsound (hence the resulting current is not an 'overload current' as defined above), but with the 'abnormal/unintented path' not having negligible impedance (hence not fulfilling the above 'conventional' definition of a 'fault', therefore the resulting current is not a 'fault current' per above definition). What would you personally call such a situation/current?

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I have seen a burnt out lead when a 3 amp lead had the 3 amp fuse in the plug replaced by a 13 amp fuse and the lead used to power a kettle.

Detachable cords for kettles have IEC 60320 C15 (or possibly C13) connectors on them, unless it's a realy old kettle like this:

Or if it's a kettle with a separate base which is powered then the cord would have been hard wired.

So - did you see a cord which had been made with an IEC 60320 connector, or old round connector, and a flex which was too thin?

Or did you see something where some t**t had rewired it using a flex which was too thin?

Because if it's the latter, then as you yourself report, the presence of a fused plug did nothing to prevent a problem. You can't use it as an example of how fused plugs are helpful. The problem is that no matter what regulations you have, they all become impotent once t**ts who ignore them get involved in wiring things.

 

[Astra99]

This was originally a discussion on cable COLOURS! I will drag it back on topic by asking the question "Who was the (insert profanity) idiot who decided that BLACK was to become a Line colour?" In the UK black has indicated neutral for donkeys years. When the harmonised 3-phase colours were brought in, surely the simplest solution was to have solid Brown as Phase 1, Brown with Grey tracer (wide brown and narrow grey) as Phase 2 and Brown with Black as Phase 3. Neutral to be Blue with Black tracer (to avoid any possible confusion with the old Blue Phase colour) Single phase cables would also have a Blue/Black neutral for consistency and to act as a warning when connecting to 3-phase boards. The way things are, with (the current) mixed colours, I would be inclined to mark each conductor to avoid ambiguity. When connecting brown/blue to red/black, I tend to short-sleeve the brown with red and put a bit of black tape around the blue(can't find any black sleeving, but got several feet of red left over). I could expand this discussion to include European installation practise, but feel that to do so may open a can of worms *and* stir up a hornet's nest!

 

[Iggifer]

i know it's only 3mm, but it's black

http://www.screwfix.com/p/3mm-black-sleeving-100m/44610

 

[RF Lighting]

Surely it would make for more sense to sleeve the red and black with brown and blue if you're really that bothered?

 

[Astra99]

See your point, RF, but this is adding one piece of brown/blue to an installation having many red/black. My "modus operandi" pays lip service to the new colours while making it clear that I prefer the old colours!

 

[JohnW2]

This was originally a discussion on cable COLOURS! I will drag it back on topic by asking the question "Who was the (insert profanity) idiot who decided that BLACK was to become a Line colour?"

It is debatable whether any 'harmonisation'was necessary. It is even more debatable as to whether the way in which it was implemented was sane (or even safe), given the sort of issues you describe (and the fact that brown 'feels' horribly like 'earth' to many people). However, whatever we think of them, we're stuck with the colours, probably for a very long time, so it is (IMO) one issue not deserving of vey much debate/discussion.

Kind Regards, John

 

[dinopower]

i work for a dno and we work live on cables, 3 core not to bad, but a four core is horrible, red 2 brown, yellow 2 BLACK, BLUE 2 grey, BlACK 2 BLUE, a lots of room for error, they advise new jointers to black heatshrink the old core colours and mark with l1, l2 tapes, if only were allowed in mains to go to a single colour for live and number, would be much safer

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Plan B - people stop pretending to be so stupid that they cannot cope with the notion that insulation colours are arbitrary, and can be reassigned without changing how things work.

Or if they are not pretending then accept that they are too f****ng thick to be electricians, and get out of the trade before their lack of intellectual capacity results in something bad.

FFS - the change took place 8 years ago. Anyone who is still banging on about it is either:

1. So mentally feeble that they should not be trying to be electricians.
2. Complete timewasters who moan about any change to anything, without recourse to reason and intelligence.
3. Pathetic sub-UKIP erophobe conspiracy nutcases who should not be allowed unsupervised access to the internet.

Which are you, Astra99?

 

[sparkwright]

Although it was 8 years ago, I can't help thinking the change-over was too sudden.

I actually think the idea of changing the colours was completely unnecessary. All the fixed wiring was red and black etc, only flex was harmonised. I think flex was harmonised for appliances to be sold all over Europe.

Although the change-over to all harmonised colours took two years to fully take place, I can't help thinking it would be better to have both types still available - harmonised only for complete new installations and old colours for additions in old houses.

However, it's always going to be debatable if large extensions are new buildings or not. The whole idea would be open to abuse, and often whatever cable is in the van would be used regardless.

In hindsight, the time to change to harmonised colours would have been around 60 years ago, when rubber cables were being gradually phased out. I don't suppose all things Europe were an issue then.

All in all, ridiculous changing the colours of fixed wiring, yet it's happened, we're stuck with it, and generally competent people do cope with it well.

 

[RF Lighting]

Plan B - people stop pretending to be so stupid that they cannot cope with the notion that insulation colours are arbitrary, and can be reassigned without changing how things work.

Or if they are not pretending then accept that they are too f****ng thick to be electricians, and get out of the trade before their lack of intellectual capacity results in something bad.

FFS - the change took place 8 years ago. Anyone who is still banging on about it is either:

1. So mentally feeble that they should not be trying to be electricians.
2. Complete timewasters who moan about any change to anything, without recourse to reason and intelligence.
3. Pathetic sub-UKIP erophobe conspiracy nutcases who should not be allowed unsupervised access to the internet.

Which are you, Astra99?

I have to agree with this.

People need to stop thinking of wires as colours and think of them as their function.

At a light switch, you don't have a brown wire and a blue wire, you have a live wire and a switched live wire which are identified by being brown and blue.

On a 4 core SWA you have L1 L2 L3 and N. It doesn't matter what colours they are.

 

[JohnW2]

I have to agree with this. People need to stop thinking of wires as colours and think of them as their function.

I also largely agree - particularly, as I've said, that we are stuck with the harmonised colours whether we like them or not - and will not really achieve anything by discussing the matter.

However, FWIW, I see at least two issues. Firstly, although colour coding is arbitrary, there's a lot to be said for not changing it once everyone has got used to it - imagine what would happen, for quite a long time (particularly in relation to 'occasional drivers', c.f.'electrical DIYers'), if we suddenly changed traffic light colours - particularly if we changed them to brown for 'go' and blue for 'stop'.

Secondly, I don't think that, in a sensible world, it really should be totally arbitrary. Ask a psychologist - almost universally, across most cultures, red, yellow and orange are associated with danger/warnings, whereas black, brown and green are perceived as 'safe' colours. On that basis, the pre-harmonisation colours made much more sense.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Astra99]

BAS, why are you so abrasive in your comments? We are all entitled to an opinion, and I merely expressed my thoughts on the matter, which included an alternative solution. The harmonised colours may have been in for 8 years, but there are still plenty of installations with old colours, which will still be there in 20 or 30 years time! "New boys" coming into the trade then could have a quite an explosive time!

 

[ricicle]

People need to stop thinking of wires as colours and think of them as their function.

.

Agree 100%. The insulation could be lime green, pink with white spots, and cyan for all it matters. If you are competant and are given a new industry standard then you should know how to connect them, regardless if one of them used to perform a different function !

 

[ban-all-sheds]

BAS, why are you so abrasive in your comments?

Because of this, so long after the event:

"Who was the (insert profanity) idiot who decided that BLACK was to become a Line colour?"

And this:

I could expand this discussion to include European installation practise, but feel that to do so may open a can of worms *and* stir up a hornet's nest!