Catch 22 Advice re Certificates

[TonyW2]

Advice please, to help in negotiations.

A charity needed a replacement gas c/h boiler and this has been installed and gas certificates issued.
The electrical arm of the installers required a new Consumer Board to 17th Regs etc to be installed (to replace an ancient overloaded fuse box) and some old lighting wiring in metal conduits to be replaced before being able to complete the replacement boiler electrical connection work. This was done.
The old existing premises wiring has been reconnected to the new CU but we are now told that the entire wiring circuits need replacing.
No electrical certificates have so far been issued.
Where do we stand at this time?
Ideally we would like certification of the work so far done and just advice as to what further work is reccomended, so that we could get an alternative quote for the further works.

 

[ColJack]

they owe you a certificate for the works done, you are under no obligation to undertake any electrical work
they didn't even have to have the new CU if you didn't want to..

if they are trying to withold certification until they get more work out of you it's blackmail, get onto a lawyer..

 

[kevindgas]

if as you say the work in replacing the boiler included the reconnection of the electrics then the person doing that reconnection is surely liable to certify that the work he carried out is safe, and issue the minor works certificate to prove he undertook the necessary tests.

 

[ColJack]

how can they justify an new CU, partial re-wire just to reconnect a boiler t a fused spur?
now the are demanding a total rewire before they will issue certs?
bloody cowboys.. they hear "charity" and assume that they can take you for a ride..

 

[ericmark]

As an electrician I have two options when taking on a job.
1) Do the job and issue the installation certificate.
2) Refuse the job.
There is no option to do the work and pretend I have not done it. There are some options on the paperwork where I can limit the extent of the work.

For example as a contractor on a large install I may fit some part of the installation while there is no power and I may enter on my installation certificate a note to the effect that it is part of a larger job and Ze figures were not available.

But only the person doing the work can issue an installation certificate so I can't walk away and say the inspection and testing will be done by someone else and not issue a certificate for the bit I have completed.

In the past where work is to be completed down from what I have done the MCB has had a locking device fitted and a "do not switch on men working on equipment" sign attached with a cable tie. This needs a tool to remove so is OK. I have also seem insulation tape put on MCB's this is not permitted as no tool required to remove but still very common.

Although with a house there are strict rules about not isolating power and in doing so making the house uninhabitable when it is not a dwelling this does not apply and an electrician under health and safety law may countermand the orders of a managing director and switch off any unsafe system. (Although he could still lose his job).

So either the power should not be on and it will require a tool to reconnect power or you will have the paperwork. And even when power is locked off there still should be something written down to say why.

Under health and safety law everything must be written down. It can be email or paper but verbal is not accepted it must be written down. And the installation certificate is all part of that health and safety law.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

how can they justify an new CU, partial re-wire just to reconnect a boiler t a fused spur?

I can see how 131.8 might have necessitated a rewire of the boiler circuit, if it was flaky, and therefore how that would involve moving it off "an ancient overloaded fuse box" (or just putting it on an external RCD, even an RCD FCU).

But the rest of the installation should have been left alone, and certainly should not have been transferred to the new CU and then used as an excuse not to issue a certificate because the old circuits weren't up to scratch.

we are now told that the entire wiring circuits need replacing.

Now that could actually be true, if the wiring is old and dodgy - i.e. there's not just a "need" to bring it up to current standards, but a genuine need to replace unsafe wiring before someone gets hurt or the building burns down.

But that would have been a separate job, costed and quoted for separately, and does not affect certifying the boiler work already done. If the electrician is claiming that he can't certify the CU without rewiring because those circuits are now connected to his new CU, then tell him that he chose to connect them therefore he chose to make them part of the agreed work for sorting out the boiler and therefore he'd bl**dy well better get on and finish the job.

All for the originally agreed price, of course.

Is the contractor a member of NICEIC, ECA etc?

 

[ColJack]

BAS.. i refer you back to one of your recent arguments..

( paraphrasing ) ... "what difference does it make whether you're reconnecting a cooker to an existing circuit or plugging a microwave in? why do you think you need to test the one circuit and not the other?... "

 

[sparkyspike]

Where does the OP say that the electrician has refused to supply the certificate?

The electrician has advised the client that a rewire is necessary. He can still agree with the client to sign off the boiler connection work and also the new CU.

The problem now is that the electrician and client now need to decide whether to go ahead and rewire, or leave any substandard circuits disconnected.

Maybe a partial rewire could solve the problem.

In the meantime, ask for the certificate for the boiler/CU installation and go from there. The worst case is having some circuits disconnected in the short term.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

BAS.. i refer you back to one of your recent arguments..

( paraphrasing ) ... "what difference does it make whether you're reconnecting a cooker to an existing circuit or plugging a microwave in? why do you think you need to test the one circuit and not the other?... "

Maybe the rain has got into my brain, but you'll have to explain the relevance of that....

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Where does the OP say that the electrician has refused to supply the certificate?

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

The problem now is that the electrician and client now need to decide whether to go ahead and rewire, or leave any substandard circuits disconnected.

Or reconnect them - the electrician has no power to force the disconnection of substandard circuits.

If he's not happy for them to be on the new CU, a situation which he gratuitously created, then he must return them to the original CU.

 

[TonyW2]

Thanks for this useful input; I knew it would get complicated.

At present, the old circuits ARE connected to the new CU (and not causing any problems) and the old CU is in electrical heaven.
That puts some limitations on options available.
At least everything is functioning
Ideally I suppose we may need to get the building completely rewired, and if this was done by the present electricians, the certificates would be issued on completion, but can we "wait a bit, "get alternative quotes for the "second half" of the job and possibly use a different contractor? What complications does it cause about certificates?

 

[mattylad]

Has he refused to issue the certificate or perhaps he is just waiting for a decision on a full reinstall so he does not have to issue it twice?

Ask for your certificate.

If he has been paid & refuses to give it to you then you need to get tough with him.

 

[ColJack]

BAS.. i refer you back to one of your recent arguments..

( paraphrasing ) ... "what difference does it make whether you're reconnecting a cooker to an existing circuit or plugging a microwave in? why do you think you need to test the one circuit and not the other?... "

Maybe the rain has got into my brain, but you'll have to explain the relevance of that....

why would you need to test and change a circuit supplying the fused spur that you are re-connecting a new boiler to?
which is the same argument you used when someone told the floor fitter he would have to test the cooker circuit before re-connecting the cookers he wanted to remove temporarily..

 

[bongos]

Ideally I suppose we may need to get the building completely rewired, and if this was done by the present electricians, the certificates would be issued on completion, but can we "wait a bit, "get alternative quotes for the "second half" of the job and possibly use a different contractor? What complications does it cause about certificates?

It shouldn't cause any complication on certificates. The sparks who installed your new CU/spur can (and should) now issue you with an EIC for the work already completed. I suggest you ask for your EIC and explain that you will be getting other quotes.

They have brought to your attention possibly substandard wiring which may need replacing. There is absolutely no reason as to why they have to do the work and by the sound of their attitude it may well be more prudent to get more quotes. Also by them supplying the EIC another spark can determine why a rewire is required.

Have they actually told you why the circuits need rewiring or just said that they are sub standard?

OOI, is this a commercial premises?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

why would you need to test and change a circuit supplying the fused spur that you are re-connecting a new boiler to?

Dunno.

Why did I get the impression that they were doing more than just connecting a new boiler to an existing FCU

Dunno that either.

Why didn't I notice this:

The electrical arm of the installers required a new Consumer Board to 17th Regs etc to be installed (to replace an ancient overloaded fuse box) and some old lighting wiring in metal conduits to be replaced before being able to complete the replacement boiler electrical connection work.

and wonder what on earth lighting circuits had to do with boilers?

Strike 3.

Who's got my coat?