Help! What electrical certificates do I need?

[plcanonica]

Last Summer we had our consumer unit changed during some other refurbishment works. The electrician did all the work, then told us that he couldn't issue a certificate for it because there was no Earth connection for the house. It took us a few months, but we finally managed to get UK Power Networks to replace the 1930s main fuse with an earthed one. However in doing so we also discovered that the electrician had made some serious errors (he had swapped the input and output connections on our meter which broke the meter - this has now also been replaced). Because of this and a few other problems we'd found with his work, we did not want him to return and looked for another electrician to certify the installation.
He tested out whole system then issued a "Domestic Electrical Installation Condition Report" which gave our system an 'unsatisfactory' rating due to various faults he found.
He has now sent us a quote for remedial work and said that once he has carried out that work he will issue an 'NIC Certificate of Works' to cover the remedial work.

My question: Are these two certificates (The 'unsatisfactory' condition report plus the certificate of works for the remedial work) enough to satisfy any relevant regulations? This is our private home and we are not renting it out.

 

[flameport]

Given the circumstances, the EICR and certificate for remedials are all you can get.

The original installer should have tested all of the circuits and the earth connection before starting the installation, and even with no earth connection they still should have provided test results for the circuits. They could have installed an earth electrode immediately rather than waiting months for repairs.

 

[Risteard]

even with no earth connection they still should have provided test results for the circuits.

Not sure what you mean by this.

If the installation was unearthed, and therefore ADS defeated, it could not possibly be certified as compliant with BS7671.

That said, works shouldn't have taken place without addressing this fundamental safety deficit. (As you suggest creating a TT system might have been an option if there was difficulty getting the DNO involved (which there shouldn't have been if indeed it was a TN system).)

 

[flameport]

Not sure what you mean by this.

Exactly what it says.

Installer tests the circuits, records those results. If for some reason they only then discover the lack of earth, all of the test results for the circuits are still available and should have been provided.

 

[Risteard]

Exactly what it says.

Installer tests the circuits, records those results. If for some reason they only then discover the lack of earth, all of the test results for the circuits are still available and should have been provided.

Works cannot be completed without an earth connection.

Test results would be pretty meaningless also. Insulation tests would also be incomplete as there is no earth path to test with reference to. Earth fault loop impedance would also be non-existent.

(EDIT: forgot that he didn't say there were no cpcs present so some of these things could be tested, but it is still of limited use and still works cannot proceed without an Earth connection.)

 

[plcanonica]

Thanks for your replies. Now if these two certificates are the best we can get under the circumstances does it mean that they will be enough to satisfy any regulations? Does the electrician need to send these certificates or something else to the local planning department? Please excuse my ignorance but I've never been through any of this!

 

[Risteard]

Thanks for your replies. Now if these two certificates are the best we can get under the circumstances does it mean that they will be enough to satisfy any regulations? Does the electrician need to send these certificates or something else to the local planning department? Please excuse my ignorance but I've never been through any of this!

An Electrical Installation Condition Report is not a certificate.

It is a report, and does not certify existing wiring (nor can it).

 

[ericmark]

When one installs a circuit or anything else, before it is energised one should test and inspect it, so in theory the first electrician should have never turned the power back on. Theory he should have tested and inspected before he started, and advised you that the DNO head needed upgrading before he started the job.

However in the real world that does not quite work, to say you have no earth, so although fitting a RCD would make it safer I not doing that until earth is fixed is clearly not the way to do things. Maybe fitting an earth rod would have helped, but then likely the DNO would not have given you an earth. So one way or another rules have to be broken, no real way around it.

So legal bit, no need for installation certificate, or minor works, or electrical installation condition report, all that is needed is either a compliance certificate or a completion certificate. In theory what you should do is inform the LABC who will get an inspection done, and when satisfied issue a completion certificate, in real terms to do that would cost a lot of money and would not make the home any safer.

So getting a compliance certificate from new electrician is about best you can get, without paying out a lot of money for nothing. I am not sure what a 'NIC Certificate of Works' is? If it's a minor works certificate then it does not need to have a compliance certificate issued with it, so law wise, no gain, if it's an installation certificate then will have a compliance certificate, but it will only cover new work.

However I asked for copies of the compliance and completion certificates from county council and they could not produce them, so that means if you say well I did have them but can't find them, they could not prove your not correct. So may be legally required, but would not really worry about them, as long as home passes the EICR.

 

[JohnW2]

Test results would be pretty meaningless also. Insulation tests would also be incomplete as there is no earth path to test with reference to.

IR tests relate to the resistance between conductors which exist in an installation (which may not even include CPCs in some cables) and have got absolutely nothing to do with, or dependence upon, an "earth path".

 

[JohnW2]

Thanks for your replies. Now if these two certificates are the best we can get under the circumstances does it mean that they will be enough to satisfy any regulations? Does the electrician need to send these certificates or something else to the local planning department? Please excuse my ignorance but I've never been through any of this!

Given that some of the work which was been done in the past (certainly the CU replacement, quite possibly more) was work that should have been 'notified' to the local authority at the time, but presumably was not so notified, the law has technically been broken. However, there is no simple (or cheap) way of remedying that, and I imagine that many people would probably take a 'pragmatic' approach to the situation!

I would doubt whether any of the remedial work that the new electrician is going to undertake would be 'notifiable' - so the LA would probably have no interest it it (or the resulting certification), per se.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Risteard]

IR tests relate to the resistance between conductors which exist in an installation (which may not even include CPCs in some cables) and have got absolutely nothing to do with, or dependence upon, an "earth path".

Insulation testing isn't typically carried out between live conductors in an existing installation. It simply isn't feasible (nor particularly desirable).

It will (almost) always be between live conductors connected together to Earth.

 

[JohnW2]

Insulation testing isn't typically carried out between live conductors in an existing installation. It simply isn't feasible (nor particularly desirable). ... It will (almost) always be between live conductors connected together to Earth.

To rephrase that correctly ... "It will often be tested between live conductors connected together to the CPC in the cable". Whether or not that CPC is connected to earth (and remains connected to earth during the IR testing) is irrelevant.

Of course, if a cable has no CPC, then that cannot be done - but that's simply an absolute truth, and is true regardless of whether or not anything in the installation is connected to earth.

 

[Risteard]

To rephrase that correctly ... "It will often be tested between live conductors connected together to the CPC in the cable". Whether or not that CPC is connected to earth (and remains connected to earth during the IR testing) is irrelevant.

Of course, if a cable has no CPC, then that cannot be done - but that's simply an absolute truth, and is true regardless of whether or not anything in the installation is connected to earth.

The cpc is required to be connected to the means of Earthing for the installation. That is a fundamental requirement of BS7671 when insulation testing.

So you have altered a correct statement into a less than correct one.

 

[JohnW2]

The cpc is required to be connected to the means of Earthing for the installation. That is a fundamental requirement of BS7671 when insulation testing.

Why, and where is that stated (I see no reference to this, let alone as a "fundamental requirement when IR testing", in either BS 7671 or GN3)?

 

[Risteard]

Why, and where is that stated (I see no reference to this, let alone as a "fundamental requirement when IR testing", in either BS 7671 or GN3)?

Read the Regulation about insulation testing. It's written plain as day in it.