Ceiling Spotlights

[simonzx10r]

Hiya

I am putting spot lights up in my living room ceiling. Just normal recessed spots. I have been told that for the regs these must be fire rated.

I had bought ones that where just the surface plate and the connection to the buld which are much cheaper than fire rated and I want gold which seems non existant in fire rated.

Can you let me know if I need fire rated to get my certificate and if so where can I get gold ones from ?

Thanks.

 

[Taylortwocities]

You only need fire rated fittings if the ceiling is a fire break itself. Is it?

In a normal house the ceiling will not be, but it may be a fire break if you live in a flat/apartment building etc.

When you ask when about

get my certificate

, what certificate are you talking about?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I have been told that for the regs these must be fire rated.

By whom?

 

[simonzx10r]

The ceiling is a standard plasterboarded ceiling between the living room and the bedrooms above. All one house.
My sparkie said they need to be fire rated to get my Part P.
And I asked a second sparkie and he said fire rated too.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

You have been a tad unlucky in finding two "electricians" who don't know what they are talking about.

If they are unable to grasp something as simple as the rules for when fire rated lights are, or are not, required then I would have serious concerns about their intellectual capacity to do any electrical work properly.

 

[simonzx10r]

Its ok you saying that the electrician dosent know what he's on about but apart from saying that, give me some proof, 2 sparkies said the same !!
Im gonna phone building control at the council. See what they say.

 

[RF Lighting]

http://www.diynot.com/wiki/Electrics:Downlights-Firehoods


http://www.trada.co.uk/images/onlinebooks/9F5F09DA-5938-47CE-B0A6-227ECDCD431E/ch03.html


http://www.peterborough.gov.uk/pdf/MG0251112_Downlighters_in_Dwellings.pdf


http://www.eastdevon.gov.uk/bc-guidancenote4-downlighters.pdf


TTC is right. Your electricians are wrong as are so many of the sheep that believe everything they're told by companies selling fire rated downlighters.

If you don't believe us, chuck your fittings in the bin and buy fire rated ones. We don't really care.

 

[simonzx10r]

Thanks for the links... Im slowly working through them but just quickly this is what the first link said...

"Installing downlighters in ceilings that are not fire compartments
Downlighters are commonly installed in locations such as kitchen ceilings, which are not fire compartment ceilings. But because they are not fire compartment ceilings does not mean that they don’t require some degree of fire resistance. The minimum fire resistance of a floor in a two-storey house, for example, is given in Appendix A of Approved Document B , ‘Fire Safety’, as 30 minutes (See Table A1). The idea is that, in a fire situation, the floor will not collapse for at least 30 minutes, enabling building occupants to leave safely. Downlighters are usually made of steel or aluminium and have a diameter of approximately 50mm (the holes themselves being about 60mm). Common sense suggests that cutting a number of holes in the plasterboard ceiling of a timber joisted floor may compromise its fire resistance capability. One measure to help the situation is to keep the number of downlighters in any one area to a minimum and to space them as far apart as possible. Solutions proposed to restore the integrity of the ceiling’s fire resistance include building a plasterboard box around luminaires or installing commercially available ‘fire hoods’. But is it necessary to restore the fire resistance capability of ceilings? "

My living room is 2 knocked in to one, so its quite large and has 22 holes in the ceiling. Isnt the above quote stating that I need fire rated?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Thanks for the links... Im slowly working through them but just quickly this is what the first link said...

"Installing downlighters in ceilings that are not fire compartments
.
.
.
But is it necessary to restore the fire resistance capability of ceilings?"

Why did you give up reading that article just before it tells you that despite what "common sense" might say, the reality is no, it is not necessary?

If you want fire rated lights then have them, but please be suspicious of the abilities of any electrician who is so ignorant that he tells you you have to have them.

My living room is 2 knocked in to one, so its quite large and has 22 holes in the ceiling.

It must be absolutely enormous if it needs 22 lights to light it up.

Or is it the case that it needs such a ridiculous number because they are useless at doing the job of lighting up the room?


But talking of holes in the ceiling, go out into your hallway, stand near the foot of the stairs, and look up - see if you notice a huge hole in the ceiling.

 

[simonzx10r]

9 at the front 9 at the rear 2 in a alcove.
front are switched in two sections so the 4 corner ones can be on without the rest, or they can be off and the central ones on.
Same in the rear of the room.
alcove separate.
so actually 20 in total
All with 3w LED bulbs.

I do appreciate your advice.

 

[simonzx10r]

i phone the building regs dept at my local council and they said I need fire rated.
I explained the info above and am having to email it to them.

 

[bernardgreen]

It is not cut and dried,

It is also important that these tests are not seen as being representative of other floor
types such as those incorporating engineered ‘I beam’ joists. Such members have little
‘sacrificial’ timber so rely almost entirely on the integrity of the ceiling lining to prevent
failure in fire. Protective measures are also essential in this type of floor.

These tests concentrated on the effect of fire on the integrity of the floor, they appear to take no account of toxic fumes passing through the plaster board and getting into other rooms long before the floor collapses

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The intumescent seals don't do their thing until the gases passing through the light get to quite a high temperature.

Anybody relying on them to stop fumes killing them is a dead man walking.

 

[bernardgreen]

The intumescent seals don't do their thing until the gases passing through the light get to quite a high temperature.

Intumescence can be triggered in some materials at temperatures below 150° C, some will trigger at 100°C This type of intumescent material cannot be used on lamp fitting seals as the normal operating temperature of the lamp could trigger intumescence which would prevent the flow of air necessary to cool the lamp.

Anybody relying on them to stop fumes killing them is a dead man walking.

True, but they are not primarily intended as a fume barrier.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Indeed they are not, but twice, recently, you've indicated that they do provide that benefit.

There is also the very real hazard of toxic fumes passing through the lamp fitting and then through the floor boards and carpets into the room above in sufficient concentration to affect the people in that room before the fire is discovered.

These tests concentrated on the effect of fire on the integrity of the floor, they appear to take no account of toxic fumes passing through the plaster board and getting into other rooms long before the floor collapses

They do not. By the time they close off the path for fumes from the fire below to the room above, anybody still in that room will only be leaving in a body bag.