chandlier & old black/brown wiring, no neutral. Safe?

[mortyone]

Hi everyone

I was looking to replace my dated 3-lamp chandelier with something more fancy from B&Q (an irony I know).

I opened the plastic ceiling rose & found really old wiring. There is 1 black and 1 very dark brown wire coming out the ceiling, both appear to be seperate cables with woven cloth as the insulation rather than plastic. I can't see a neutral wire anywhere.

The existing chandelier has modern wiring i.e. 1x blue, 1x brown, 1x green/yellow.

The chandelier's blue connects to the old black, and the brown connects to the brown. HOWEVER, the green/yellow coming up from the chandelier only terminates on the metal frame of the chandelier itself.

I was a bit worried by this, so I switched the power back on and touched the outside metal frame of the chandelier with a voltage dectector pen (cheapy from B&Q). It showed the voltage symbol and flickered to 32V, which really concerned me.

I've rechecked that the black/blue and brown/brown definitely aren't aren't exposed or touching.

Please excuse the really dumb question, but is this earthing safe?

If so, why would the voltage dectector pen light up on the exterior of the chandelier when its switched on? Should this not have been installed without modern wiring for the earth?

The light works perfectly, I'm just worried the metal frame may not be safe to handle when switched on.

Many thanks for any gems of advice you can give.

 

[1john]

Bad news i'm affraid, you light must not be connected to any wiring without an earth and your household wiring is of such a vintage that it requires replacing.

 

[Adam_151]

The existing wiring is likely to be coloured black and red rather than brown for what its worth (but may look brownish at first glance... see below)

The fact that your light fixture is of class 1 construction (requiring an earth) and you don't seem to have one is of great concern (its the earth you are missing, not the neutral), the installation is unsafe as it stands and you should not have installed the fixture onto this wiring!, as you allude to the indication you are getting on your voltstick (or similar) is due to the earth being floating.

The light works perfectly, I'm just worried the metal frame may not be safe to handle when switched on.

Thats exactly right, the light works, but there is no protetcion against faults and a fault ould make the fitting live, just waiting to be found the next time someone grabs hold of it to steady it while changing a lamp...


Was the light you replaced of insulated construction?

Also you make the point that the cabling appears to be fabric covered, this is usually a fabric covering over vulcanised india rubber wiring, which was installed upto the 1960's and is considered to have a lifespan of 25 years... you do the maths , it looks like you may be overdue for a re-wire...

You got any picturess so that we are able to confirm the above for you?

 

[1john]

cable could also be in rolled conduit or wooden trunking. Could also be lead sheathed.

 

[mortyone]

Thank you to everyone for all the useful replies.

I've attached a photo of the ceiling rose showing the old wiring; and also of the earth leakage, which only has modern wiring coming out of it...

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• mortyone
• 5 Oct 2010
• 1

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• mortyone
• 5 Oct 2010
• 1

Also just to clarify, i've not changed the light fitting yet, the chandelier was installed by the previous owner(s), I've only got as far as opening it up.

Thanks again to everyone for their useful advice on the wiring.

 

[mortyone]

Thank you to everyone for all the useful replies.

I've attached a photo of the ceiling rose showing the old wiring; and also of the earth leakage, which only has modern wiring coming out of it...

Untitled

• mortyone
• 5 Oct 2010
• 1

Untitled

• mortyone
• 5 Oct 2010
• 1

Also just to clarify, i've not changed the light fitting yet, the chandelier was installed by the previous owner(s), I've only got as far as opening it up.

Thanks again to everyone for their useful advice on the wiring.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

cable could also be in rolled conduit or wooden trunking. Could also be lead sheathed.

Or it could, as it now appears, be modern cable with heat resistant sleeving slipped over it

Morty - you need to investigate the wiring to that light fitting more closely - there will almost certainly be an earth wire there somewhere, it's not unusual for people to tuck it out of the way if they're fitting a light which doesn't need an earth. Check the switches and other lights to see if one is present.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I've attached a photo of the ceiling rose showing the old wiring; and also of the earth leakage, which only has modern wiring coming out of it...

"Earth leakage"?

 

[OwainDIYer]

That doesn't look like modern sleeving to me.

And a single red (switch) and 2 neutrals looped in would be typical old conduit wiring.

I wonder for how long the modern wiring continues away from the new CU?

 

[londonboy]

That doesn't look like modern sleeving to me.

I wonder for how long the modern wiring continues away from the new CU?

I second this! My guess is about 1metre until you find a row of j/b's under the floor

 

[OwainDIYer]

That doesn't look like modern sleeving to me.

I wonder for how long the modern wiring continues away from the new CU?

I second this! My guess is about 1metre until you find a row of j/b's under the floor

JBs? Woss wrong with twist'n'tape?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

That doesn't look like modern sleeving to me.

 

[davelx]

]

Looks a bit too waxy to be that.

 

[Jaymack]

The wiring looks like it is VRI Vulcanised Rubber Insulated cable. Being organic, this is beyond it's sell by date and it crumbles when overheated (at terminations). Even though an insulation test is satisfactory, the wiring can't be inspected along it's length for signs of degradation.

There was no requirement around the time this type of cable conformed (1960's?), for an earth (CPC), to be provided for lighting circuits. Class I fittings and accessories are not permitted where there is no earth bond, class II are.

Regards

 

[ban-all-sheds]

... earth bond ...