chandlier & old black/brown wiring, no neutral. Safe?

[Jaymack]

... earth bond ...

What's your point?

 

[sparkwright]

At a glance, that ceiling rose wiring to me looks like old VIR wiring (that needs replacing).

However, it does also look a bit like heat resistant sleeving.

The wiring at the consumer unit looks healthy, but that's not to say old wiring isn't still present.

Possibly the consumer unit was moved, and cables extended.

Try and see if the wires at the rose seem crumbly. Also see if the wire itself is copper, or tinned copper (silver colour).
Also, see if the wires emerge into pvc sheathed cables (eg twin+earth cable). And, as suggested, look for earth wires and a live loop terminal block shoved in the ceiling void.

If it is old wiring it would probably be in wooden trunking, or black metal conduit.
The black metal conduit may not be connected to earth, as over the years changes to the installation can lead to such dangers.

 

[flameport]

That is VIR, the wiring arrangement gives it away (2 neutrals, 1 line).

 

[SUNRAY]

It bothers me that some experts dont recognise VIR

 

[1john]

That isn't heat resistant sleeving, OP, i would be very carefull pulling at the wiring, you could end up with alot of the insulation falling off of it if it has gone brittle. nasty. Just because there are newer cables on show at your consumer unit doesn't mean to say that they havent been taken to an inconspicuous area and connected onto old stuff or that some other circuits are entering the consumer unit from the back. Get a sparky in for a nose about, see what they say.

 

[Jaymack]

It bothers me that some experts dont recognise VIR

Ditto for using the abbreviation VIR!

Regards

 

[mortyone]

Thanks to everyone for their great replies.

I've checked all my wall sockets, they have the same modern wiring as that coming out the trip board. However, the light switches are once again the old wiring.

More worrying for me, the previous owner installed dimmer switches on these lights (which have metal turn dials to switch on/off), as shown in the photo below :-

Untitled

• mortyone
• 6 Oct 2010
• 1

I prodded around the ceiling rose but could not find an earth wire tucked away anywhere, so have to assume it just doesn't exist.

So I guess its time to get the lighting rewired.

I'm guessing it will be quite a job to get this fixed, chasing into walls, the ceilings too etc. Could any one give a rough idea of what price I should expect? Its a 2 bedroom flat, 1 lounge, 1 dining room, bathroom, kitchen.

Thank you again to everyone for their really useful replies, its very much appreciated.

 

[SUNRAY]

It bothers me that some experts dont recognise VIR

Ditto for using the abbreviation VIR!

Regards

Apologies for using an abbreviated description for:-
Waxed cotton covered vulcanized indian rubber insulated wire.

In my experience, some electricians of the era called it cotton & rubber, reserving VIR to describe rubber/rubber construction, ie single tails, twin, T&E etc.

Note the cotton sheath is not classed as insulation, it was a later addition to prevent the rubber insulation perishing by keeping the air away and protect the rubber against damage during installation and compression damage once installed.

 

[holmslaw]

..

 

[ban-all-sheds]

What's your point?

Just a prediction of people complaining about your use of the term "earth bond"...

[EDIT]Badly formed quote fixed[/EDIT]

 

[holmslaw]

..

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I've checked all my wall sockets, they have the same modern wiring as that coming out the trip board. However, the light switches are once again the old wiring.

Just like the cables from the CU could be joined to old wiring shortly after leaving, so could the cables from the sockets, you need to get it all properly checked out.

More worrying for me, the previous owner installed dimmer switches on these lights (which have metal turn dials to switch on/off), as shown in the photo below :-

They look like plastic switches with no earth terminal. If so then they don't need earthing.

I prodded around the ceiling rose but could not find an earth wire tucked away anywhere, so have to assume it just doesn't exist.

So I guess its time to get the lighting rewired.

Or possibly the whole lot, depending on what the inspection uncovers.

Do you have any idea when that CU was installed? Any date stickers on it?

I'm guessing that you don't have an installation certificate for it.

When you bought the house did your solicitor ask the vendor if any work requiring Building Regulations approval had been done?

Approval was required for that CU if it was done after 01/01/2005, so if it turns out that the seller lied about it then you have a very good case to go after the b*****d for compensation.

 

[londonboy]

Lots of older properties have conduits installed into the wall, you may be lucky and could pull the new cables through, minimising disruption to the walls.

You can check this by (safely) removing switches and looking for a tube around the cables.

Whats above the ceiling? You say flat, is it a solid concrete ceiling? Or is it a roofspace?

 

[densamember]

It bothers me that some experts dont recognise VIR

Ditto for using the abbreviation VIR!

Apologies for using an abbreviated description for:-
Waxed cotton covered vulcanized indian rubber insulated wire.

Not what I meant, it's Vulcanised Rubber Insulated Cable, it's the rubber that's vulcanised! VRI cable, not VIR although it's in common useage, it's wrong, as with plugtop, it's a plug.

In my experience, some electricians of the era called it cotton & rubber, reserving VIR to describe rubber/rubber construction, ie single tails, twin, T&E etc.

Never heard that term in use for cable, cord yes - cotton covered.

Note the cotton sheath is not classed as insulation, it was a later addition to prevent the rubber insulation perishing by keeping the air away and protect the rubber against damage during installation and compression damage once installed.

Agree with that, it's the reason why this had to be cut back aboout 1/2 inch in old money, to avoid contact with the terminals.

Regards

 

[SUNRAY]

It bothers me that some experts dont recognise VIR

Ditto for using the abbreviation VIR!

Apologies for using an abbreviated description for:-
Waxed cotton covered vulcanized indian rubber insulated wire.

Not what I meant, it's Vulcanised Rubber Insulated Cable, it's the rubber that's vulcanised! VRI cable, not VIR although it's in common useage, it's wrong, as with plugtop, it's a plug.

In my experience, some electricians of the era called it cotton & rubber, reserving VIR to describe rubber/rubber construction, ie single tails, twin, T&E etc.

Never heard that term in use for cable, cord yes - cotton covered.

Note the cotton sheath is not classed as insulation, it was a later addition to prevent the rubber insulation perishing by keeping the air away and protect the rubber against damage during installation and compression damage once installed.

Agree with that, it's the reason why this had to be cut back aboout 1/2 inch in old money, to avoid contact with the terminals.

Regards

I'm fine with all of this, and freely accept that there are regional, trade ETC variations in 'slang' terminology however I don't believe I have ever heard it referred to as VRI [AFAIC thats a variable reactance inductor] so I have just done a quick google search, VRI came up with 33,000 results and vir came up with 1,300,300 results though I did not look at any of the results to see what they are or which is the more correct.
I agree that plugtop is wrong and even worse plugsocket. I hate it when I hear electricians using the terms and will not use them myself.

This is sent as a friendly discussion