Clarification needed on the new EICR regs

[JohnW2]

No he isn't. He is prohibited from certifying work with an EICR.

Prohibited by whom?

You are absolutely not free to use whatever forms you wish.

What forms do you believe 'must' be used, then? EICRs are a concept created by BS7671, and BS7671 certainly does not include any requirements to use any specific forms. The nearest it gets is:

653.1 Upon completion of the periodic inspection and testing of an existing installation, an Electrical Installation Condition Report based on the model given in Appendix 6 shall be produced.
653.2 The Report shall include the following: ....

... and I'm sure we have all seen forms which are variations on the theme from various organisation, all of which are 'based on' the examples/models in the Appendix of BS7671.

In any event, the OP's posted EIC (now seemingly disappeared from the forum) was a little odd, due to what appears to have been a 'printing error'. It consists of page 1 to page 7 of a "Stroma Certification" EIC report, all but one of which pages has a footer such as:

The one exception is page 6, the footer of which the OP brought to our attention. Although the page starts ...

.... making it very clear that it was for EICs, and should not be used for EICRs, the footer of just that one page reads:

... which presumably was just a 'printing error' on the part of Stroma (and, in any event, this page does not actually contain any 'reported material' - it's simply printed 'notes'.

For that reason , as I wrote to the OP, it clearly was, and was intended to be, an EIC, and not an EICR (despite that one footer).

 

[ericmark]

No he isn't. He is prohibited from certifying work with an EICR. You are absolutely not free to use whatever forms you wish.

In the UK it is common practice for the LABC to get an electrician they trust to complete an EICR for a new installation as it is not permitted to issue an EIC if you have not done the work, the EICR is nearly the same as an EIC and the LABC where their inspectors don't have the skill use them to satisfy themselves the work is OK before issuing a completion certificate.

I was rather surprised that there is no link between the completion certificate and the EIC or EICR, and the completion certificate is rather vague, as to what it covers, also that I could not get a copy of the completion certificate when requested from the county council, I mislaid one on the selling of mothers house, and applied for a replacement, and was told it could not be provided for 4 months and cost would be how ever long it took them to find it.

One would hope there is a link between a compliance certificate and an EIC, but it is the compliance certificate which shows the work has been done by some one who has the skill required, and is the legal document. There is no legal requirement for an EIC and it is made very clear in the Part P law where a completion certificate is issued often there will not be a EIC. So as long as a copy of completion or compliance certificate is given to tenant then one is OK, and since a compliance certificate is auto forwarded to the LABC they already have it, so clearly not need to give a copy to county council they already have a copy.

 

[ax222s]

I have just been on the phone to the LA. The lady didnt really understand what I was asking or what the regulations were, so suggested I email them, which I have just done. Hopefully in a couple of days theyll message me back and give me a definitive answer!

Ive been reading this page: https://electrical.theiet.org/wirin...ivate-rented-sector-england-regulations-2020/

Admittedly, its a year old, but it reads "If the installation is already covered by an existing Electrical Installation Certificate (EIC) or an Electrical Installation Condition Report (EICR) that was issued before the new Regulations came into force, there is no need for it to be inspected and tested again"

But that contradicts what is on the certificate "This Certificate is intended to be issued only for a new electrical installation or for new work associated with an addition or alteration to an existing
installation. It should not have been issued for the inspection of an existing electrical installation. An “Electrical Installation Condition Report“ should be issued for such an inspection."

I dont know if Im being a bit thick (which is more than likely!) or the certificate - and articles about the regulations - are self contradictory and opaque!!

 

[Risteard]

Prohibited by whom?
What forms do you believe 'must' be used, then? EICRs are a concept created by BS7671, and BS7671 certainly does not include any requirements to use any specific forms. The nearest it gets is: ... and I'm sure we have all seen forms which are variations on the theme from various organisation, all of which are 'based on' the examples/models in the Appendix of BS7671.

In any event, the OP's posted EIC (now seemingly disappeared from the forum) was a little odd, due to what appears to have been a 'printing error'. It consists of page 1 to page 7 of a "Stroma Certification" EIC report, all but one of which pages has a footer such as:

View attachment 227196

The one exception is page 6, the footer of which the OP brought to our attention. Although the page starts ...

View attachment 227197

.... making it very clear that it was for EICs, and should not be used for EICRs, the footer of just that one page reads:

View attachment 227198

... which presumably was just a 'printing error' on the part of Stroma (and, in any event, this page does not actually contain any 'reported material' - it's simply printed 'notes'.

For that reason , as I wrote to the OP, it clearly was, and was intended to be, an EIC, and not an EICR (despite that one footer).

Prohibited by BS7671 and all regulatory bodies. A report is not a certificate and does not certify anything. It cannot be used to certify work.

 

[ericmark]

No he isn't. He is prohibited from certifying work with an EICR. You are absolutely not free to use whatever forms you wish.

The BS 7671 is not law, the Part P regulations are law, so the Part P regulations allow the use of an EICR to verify work done by a third party, any it makes it clear the EIC and/or the EICR does NOT need to be given to the owner, if done the LABC can retain them without passing them on, only the completion certificate is passed to the owner.

Clearly not the same with scheme members and compliance certificate they do get the EIC but still it is the compliance certificate which is the legal document and is the bit that matters, not the EIC. So all down to what the compliance certificate says.

 

[Risteard]

The BS 7671 is not law, the Part P regulations are law, so the Part P regulations allow the use of an EICR to verify work done by a third party, any it makes it clear the EIC and/or the EICR does NOT need to be given to the owner, if done the LABC can retain them without passing them on, only the completion certificate is passed to the owner.

Clearly not the same with scheme members and compliance certificate they do get the EIC but still it is the compliance certificate which is the legal document and is the bit that matters, not the EIC. So all down to what the compliance certificate says.

I made no mention of "unlawful".

 

[EFLImpudence]

You are doing it again Eric. Part P is THE LAW and is A one sentence vague statement.

Again - That's it; there is no more.


If you are referring to Approved Document P then you should say so. That is merely a guidance book written by someone and has no authority in law.


There are also many other Building Regulations which state all sorts of minor things.

 

[JohnW2]

Prohibited by BS7671 ....

As I said (and illustrated), that is simply not true. Far from 'forbidding' an EICR existing on any (or many) particular forms, it merely lists what information must be provided in the report and says that the report should be provided on forms which are 'based on' the example model forms in an 'informative' Appendix of BS7671.

.... all regulatory bodies.

What 'regulatory bodies'? Electrical work in the UK is, in general, totally unregulated.

A report is not a certificate and does not certify anything. It cannot be used to certify work.

For a start, that is the opposite of the OP's situation. He has what it clearly an EIC (despite the mis-print in the footer of one page) and was wondering whether it could be 'used as an EICR'. Are you also suggesting that 'a certificate is not a report and does not report anything'? If not, what is your point?

 

[ax222s]

Ive just heard back from the Council's building Controller.

I sent him my certificate and my questions together with a link to https://electrical.theiet.org/wirin...ivate-rented-sector-england-regulations-2020/ (just to make it absolutely clear the regulations I was enquiring about, because the lady I spoke to didnt).

His reply:

=========
From the link you provided, it refers electrical installations needing inspection and testing at regular intervals, and further advises that ‘regular’ means at intervals no longer than 5 years apart. You may need to shorten this period if the system suffers abuse or alteration.

I’d therefore suggest that your installation report from 2 years ago will remain valid until the 5 years is reached from its installation date, at which point it will need a fresh EICR if you continue to rent out the property.

The enforcement of this would actually be via ######’s housing department rather than building control, which is where your enquiry has ended up, though I doesn’t seem to be something that needs onward consideration.
=========

So he seems quite happy with it. However, I have also emailed the housing department just to make sure.

Thoughts?

 

[JohnW2]

I have just been on the phone to the LA. The lady didnt really understand what I was asking or what the regulations were, so suggested I email them, which I have just done. Hopefully in a couple of days theyll message me back and give me a definitive answer!

As I implied before, I'm not surprised (by her lack of understanding), and I have to say that, if I were in your position I would not be holding my breath in expectation of getting a useful written response. In such situations the bureaucratic are prone to coming backing with merely a quote of the 'rules'/laws/whatever. I hope you do better than that in this case.

Admittedly, its a year old, but it reads "If the installation is already covered by an existing Electrical Installation Certificate (EIC) or an Electrical Installation Condition Report (EICR) that was issued before the new Regulations came into force, there is no need for it to be inspected and tested again" .... I dont know if Im being a bit thick (which is more than likely!) or the certificate - and articles about the regulations - are self contradictory and opaque!!

you're certainly not thick. I don't know, but I can but assume that what you quote is meant to relate to a EIC which covers the entire electrical installation - as would be the case in relation to the initial installation for a new-build or a 'total re-wire'.

As I've said before, an EIC issued in relation to a particular piece of work on an existing installation (like the one you have) will not necessarily/usually cover all of the things that would need to be inspected/tested for an EICR - so, from their point-of-view, they would be a bit daft to accept such an EICR as being the equivalent (or 'alternative') to an EICR for any particular purpose.#

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Ive just heard back from the Council's building Controller. .... His reply: "I’d therefore suggest that your installation report from 2 years ago will remain valid until the 5 years is reached from its installation date, at which point it will need a fresh EICR if you continue to rent out the property. .... The enforcement of this would actually be via ######’s housing department rather than building control, which is where your enquiry has ended up, though I doesn’t seem to be something that needs onward consideration." So he seems quite happy with it. However, I have also emailed the housing department just to make sure. Thoughts?

From what he's written (and looked at), I frankly doubt that he understands the difference between an EIC and an EICR.

However, if the Housing Department (who probably understand even less about such matters) confirm that they are also "quite happy" with the situation then, despite it probably not being what the law expected/intended, I suppose you would be 'laughing" - but be sure to keep a copy of those 'confirmations'

Kind Regards, John

 

[ax222s]

Yes, I get the impression he took a cursory glance and waived it through.

If I dont hear from the Housing Department in a few days Ill go ahead and get an EICR done. Its *only* a couple of hundred quid and will last for 5 years.

It just wrangles a bit that new regulation comes into force - of which I could face very heavy financial penalties!! - and yet there seems to be noone that can offer any firm answers, and noone I can quickly phone and explain the situation to. I know its only a couple of hundred quid, but on top of everything else its getting to a point where its just not worth letting a property. (But that is a topic for a completely separate thread!)

 

[JohnW2]

Yes, I get the impression he took a cursory glance and waived it through.

Indeed - but, as I said, probably 'worse' than that, because I suspect that he thought that what he was looking at (what you have) was, or effectively was, an EICR.

If I dont hear from the Housing Department in a few days Ill go ahead and get an EICR done. Its *only* a couple of hundred quid and will last for 5 years.

It's obviously for you to decide what you are comfortable with. The reality is that your only obligation is to provide a copy of 'the report' to the tenant (and only to the LA 'if asked for it') - so if you send a copy of your EIC to the tenant and they don't complain, then I see no reason why any issue should arise until it 'expires' in 3 years' time.

It just wrangles a bit that new regulation comes into force - of which I could face very heavy financial penalties!! - and yet there seems to be noone that can offer any firm answers, and noone I can quickly phone and explain the situation to. I know its only a couple of hundred quid, but on top of everything else its getting to a point where its just not worth letting a property. (But that is a topic for a completely separate thread!)

The legislation was well-intentioned but I'm certainly not the only person who thinks that the present situation is unacceptable (for a variety of reasons) and really needs to be urgently 'reviewed'. Probably the greatest issue is the inconsistency of the EICRs being undertaken, which means that landlords can potentially face (or not face) substantial 'remedial work costs' in a situation akin to a 'postcode lottery'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ax222s]

OK, Ive just heard back from the Housing Department. I must say, Im impressed with the responsiveness of my local council. I was anticipating days between each communication!!

They have said... wait for it...

==========
Thank you for your enquiry.
You are correct in that your electrical certificate that covers the whole of the fixed installation is satisfactory documentation at the present time.
An EICR (or EIC) that covers the whole installation will be required 5 years from the date of your current certificate.
==========

Is that definitive enough do you think?

 

[JohnW2]

OK, Ive just heard back from the Housing Department. I must say, Im impressed with the responsiveness of my local council. I was anticipating days between each communication!!

Me too - if not 'weeks'!

They have said... wait for it... "Thank you for your enquiry. You are correct in that your electrical certificate that covers the whole of the fixed installation is satisfactory documentation at the present time. An EICR (or EIC) that covers the whole installation will be required 5 years from the date of your current certificate.". Is that definitive enough do you think?

Interesting!

It does seem fairly definitive. However, have they seen your EIC? As I've been saying, an EIC which "covered the entire electrical installation" would, in effect be the same as an EICR - but, as I've also been saying, I doubt that the EIC does 'cover the entire installation' to the same extent that an EICR would!

However, given they say that they say "your electrical certificate that covers the whole of the fixed installation is satisfactory documentation at the present time" presumably means (or could certainly be interpreted as meaning) that, having examined your EIC, they are satisfied (rightly or wrongly) that it does "cover the whole of the fixed installation".

Assuming that they did see your EIC, I can't see that anyone you waved that e-mail at could possibly fail to agree that you had 'taken all reasonable steps' to ensure that the piece of paper you have is adequate/satisfactory for the purpose of the PRS legislation (even if the 'official answer' you have been given is 'incorrect'!) - so, if I were you, I think I would just send a copy of that EIC to the tenants and then (do my best to) forget about the issue for 3 years. However, it's obviously up to you!

Kind Regards, John