Cold flat over garage

[YorkshireMidge]

A friend of mine has a large ground floor relatively modern apartment which is apparently very expensive to heat and a real struggle to keep warm. It has conventional electric convector heaters on the walls. It sits above the communal garage which is naturally and well ventilated - and also very cold in Winter.

The main problem is the huge lounge/dining room which has laminate flooring - and the suspicion is the thermal insulation just isn't good enough between flat and garage beneath. Other smaller rooms in the flat are carpeted and fair better.

Any ideas on how best to deal with this? My ideas were:

1. Take up the laminate flooring (which is showing its age a bit anyway) and carpet the lounge/diner too, but not convinced it will be THAT much better in a room that size.

2. Take up the laminate flooring, and lay thermal insulation board, and something thin like wood effect Karndean on top of it so it keeps the flooring depth consistent with other rooms. But I'm just not sure whether this will be significantly better than what is already there either.

3. Look at some cheaper or more efficient electric heating, but my friend doesn't want anything bulky and horrible to spoil the look such as storage heaters, and it is a really nice flat.

My friend was thinking of underfloor heating but that would need a thermal barrier underneath it anyway, and doubt that would cost any less to run. No gas to property.

Any other thoughts, and in particular practical experiences, appreciated.

Thanks! Ian.

 

[flameport]

Carpet may be marginally better than laminate, but the difference will be minimal. Same with adding thin insulation boards.
Carpet may be perceived to be warmer than solid floors even if the actual temperature is the same.

While some heat is lost through floors, the majority of it is lost via other routes. What are the walls and ceiling made from? Do these have insulation? Size and type of windows? Ventilation?
Another consideration is the existing heaters - are they actually suitably sized to heat the room?

3. Look at some cheaper or more efficient electric heating,

Cheaper means reducing the cost of the electricity, as in overnight use on E7, so storage heaters.
More efficient is not an option - all electric heaters convert the input energy into heat, regardless of what they are made from or how much they cost.

 

[Chud]

I know it's not UK (and a lot colder!) but I seem to recall this issue coming up loads of times on Holmes on Homes back when it was on TV - iirc they normally found lack or unsealed vapour barriers, insufficient or poorly installed insulation. I think 9 times out of ten they sorted it by stripping the garage ceiling/walls back and getting a spray foam specialist in. One point that would also come up is if the room above wasn't effectively sealed from below there can be risks from carbon monoxide along with the risk of the wood rotting as cold air meets warm.

 

[foxhole]

So garage is basement level?

 

[endecotp]

Ideally you'd start by working out what the floor construction is, but this is difficult without x-ray specs. You might get some useful info by employing someone to do a survey with a thermal imaging camera (I think this has to be done in the winter; see e.g. http://www.earth.org.uk/thermal-imaging-survey-of-house.html ).

If it is the case that there is a significant lack of insulation in the floor, the options are to add some on top or underneath. On top means losing room height, re-fitting skirtings and much other agro. Underneath means loosing height in the garage and comes with its own difficulties (e.g. what products meet fire regulations in a garage?).

Is the property sufficiently new that some sort of warranty from the builders is still in effect?

 

[YorkshireMidge]

So garage is basement level?

Yes, it is at basement level but with the ground cut down at an angle all around and large window sized openings with decorative ironwork so plenty of natural air flow.

Carpet may be marginally better than laminate, but the difference will be minimal. Same with adding thin insulation boards.
Carpet may be perceived to be warmer than solid floors even if the actual temperature is the same.

While some heat is lost through floors, the majority of it is lost via other routes. What are the walls and ceiling made from? Do these have insulation? Size and type of windows? Ventilation?
Another consideration is the existing heaters - are they actually suitably sized to heat the room?


In my mind, I was comparing the problem with my own third bedroom which is above my own integral garage - and that bedroom is always just that little bit cooler than the rest of the house in spite of the floor being packed full of insulation. My friends place is a modern block of flats about 14 years old, and at ground level, the outer wall is dressed stone block. Not sure about inner construction but imagine it may be block/dry line and steel reinforced concrete floors at each level. All double glazed.

Interesting point about the number/size of heaters - I checked the measurements and the room in question is 31ft long and 17ft wide at widest point so a fairly big space to heat in any case. The two convector heaters are about 6ft long and maybe 2.5ft high.

3. Look at some cheaper or more efficient electric heating,

Cheaper means reducing the cost of the electricity, as in overnight use on E7, so storage heaters.
More efficient is not an option - all electric heaters convert the input energy into heat, regardless of what they are made from or how much they cost.

Sorry, poor choice of wording - I meant cost efficient as in E7. But I've heard they tend to then sting you on daytime tariff anyway these days so perhaps not as cost efficient as it used to be? I did wonder whether underfloor electric tends to hold some of the heat better and give the feeling of being warmer and more stable temp but not something I'm familiar with. Also wondered whether any of the latest IR heaters make you feel warmer even if the room isn't if you see what I mean.

Ideally you'd start by working out what the floor construction is, but this is difficult without x-ray specs. You might get some useful info by employing someone to do a survey with a thermal imaging camera (I think this has to be done in the winter; see e.g. http://www.earth.org.uk/thermal-imaging-survey-of-house.html ).

If it is the case that there is a significant lack of insulation in the floor, the options are to add some on top or underneath. On top means losing room height, re-fitting skirtings and much other agro. Underneath means loosing height in the garage and comes with its own difficulties (e.g. what products meet fire regulations in a garage?).

Is the property sufficiently new that some sort of warranty from the builders is still in effect?

14 years I think. Interesting thought on the thermal imaging option - it would certainly identify if there is something fundamentally wrong.


Thanks for the replies.....

 

[flameport]

Underfloor heating works, but only if the floor is very well insulated - in your case you would be throwing a fair amount of the heat into the garage below.
IR is one extreme to the other - in front of the heater is blazing hot, move to the side and it's cold as ice.

In any case, electric heating is the most expensive option compared to other fuels. E7 can save money provided the majority of electricity used is on the overnight rate, typically with all electric heating this would be the case so is cheaper even with the additional cost during the day.

 

[foxhole]

The garage roof must be concrete?

 

[YorkshireMidge]

The garage roof must be concrete?

Yes, I would imagine so. Assuming that's the case, is there any thermal barrier typically included in the floor when it's being constructed?

 

[foxhole]

Would think he can only insulate the floor, 50mm of jablite on top will do , Afraid electric heating is very expensive as mentioned.
He could insulate all the walls and ceiling again, can't have too much insulation, but must also be ventilated to prevent condensation.

 

[YorkshireMidge]

Would think he can only insulate the floor, 50mm of jablite on top will do , Afraid electric heating is very expensive as mentioned.
He could insulate all the walls and ceiling again, can't have too much insulation, but must also be ventilated to prevent condensation.

I think we have some useful ideas to be going on with, so thanks for this and other replies everyone.