Combi efficiency-whose right, Worcester or a forum member?

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Quote from the Worcester Greenstar manual

TIPS ON ENERGY SAVING
Central heating systems with room thermostats/thermostatic radiator valves.

The central heating control on the boiler should be set to the maximum rated temperature of the central heating system. The temperature of each room can be set individually (except primary room with the room thermostat) using the thermostatic radiator valves.


Quote from this forum

To get the highest efficiency use a weather compensation sensor (and set it up correctly) or with a non-weather ccompensation boiler run the heating flow temperature at the boiler as low as posible that will adequately heat the property. (it will only need to be on max when its snowing!)

So for maximum efficiency who is right? (also worth noting that while Worcester say that there should be a 11C temperature drop on the return feed from a radiator this should be 20C if the radiator is connected to a combi boiler)
 
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IF Worcester know what they are talking about, follow them.

They might have been clever enough to design the boiler so that it ensures wherever possible it condenses IF you set temp to max and let the boiler have the full range of it's design to modulate within.

there are some cynical IF's in there but you decide which side of IF to jump.

One thing I do know is that to heat your house and get your boiler tyo condense you will certainly need larger rads than you have now.

IF you want to maximise condensing of boiler AND your radiators aren't big enough you must COMPROMISE by tolerating lower room temperatures. This will be the most energy efficient move you will make.

Then go out and buy a real wool jumper.
 
Worcester say that there should be a 11C temperature drop on the return feed from a radiator this should be 20C if the radiator is connected to a combi boiler)

If they say that' they're wrong. I suspect a misquote. Condensing, not combi.
There have been people on this forum asserting that you need Weather Compensation for a boiler to condense. They remind me of my cat. He goes on and on and on and on, but without a shred of intelligence.
 
Running a boiler at the minimum temperature that will adequately heat the property will extract more heat energy from the combustion products (obviously it is easier with weather compensation since the set temperature is automatically matched).

However, the increased condensation occurring within the boiler heat exchanger may result in a reduced boiler life due to increased corrosion...more so without adequate servicing.

I suspect many manufacturers are being very cautious especially when they offer extended warranties. There is considerable incompetence within manufacturer design teams....producing products with many design faults, often only coming to light several years after the initial product launch, hence marketing departments may say one thing......"run at maximum temperature" despite the common knowledge to run as low as possible.

Another gem from their literature....."The heat cell can be cleaned in situ via an inspection hatch saving time during service." Their boilers with this particular heat exchanger take a couple of hours to thoroughly service....right PITA. And when the boiler is right flued the inspection hatch is under the flue :rolleyes:

Are Worcester not introducing weather compensation on some of their range? I suppose the increased corrosion within the heat exchanger will be balanced out by the reduction in the plastic junk bottom end not going brittle and the O rings cooking :)

The 11C drop was originally derived from the old Farenheit 180-160 design criteria....heat exchangers were inefficient and raising the temperature by 20F was felt appropriate. This gave an average radiator temperature of around 76C and radiators were sized accordingly. High efficiency heat exchangers can raise the temperature by 20C (provided the manufacturer quotes this in their literature) but allowing a 20C drop lowers the average radiator temperature and on a sufficiently cold day they may not heat the room to the required temperature. There are advantages though eg the increased drop doubles the heat capacity of the pipework allowing reduced installation cost (albeit the rads need to be a little oversized). Manufacturers have to cope with old systems with the traditional 11C drop and newer systems perhaps designed on a 20C drop...hence the ambiguity.

Having designed a particular system with oversized rads to allow maximum flow temperatures of just 55-60C (even when snowing outside) I can tell you the heat exchanger was in a real state after the first year. It actually appeared to have snowed inside given the significant oxide buildup....it will be interesting to see its appearance at this years service visit.
 
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(obviously it is easier with weather compensation since the set temperature is automatically matched).

...or automatically MIS matched, not that I'd want a set temperature anyway.
A bit of standard Control software and internal sensor(s) would do a far better job than going by the temperature in the garden.
 
Not wanting to get into the WC or not debate, I would be suspicious of Worcester as they have so far refused to put WC onto their boilers here, whilst doing so in Germany.

Most of the other major brands here accomodate it and support it.
 
I'm just saying recognise it for what it is; a cheap, crude measure. Better than nothing but not wonderful.
Maybe WB think their software makes it pointless, which is perfectly possible.
They'd have to add WC in Germany because the regs there force all mfrs to have it.
 
Worcester say that there should be a 11C temperature drop on the return feed from a radiator this should be 20C if the radiator is connected to a combi boiler)

If they say that' they're wrong. I suspect a misquote. Condensing, not combi.
There have been people on this forum asserting that you need Weather Compensation for a boiler to condense. They remind me of my cat. He goes on and on and on and on, but without a shred of intelligence.

Yep they are talking about condensing but it is the only time I have seen a 20C figure.

Your installer should have regulated the
lockshield valve so that there is an 'even
heat up' that takes place throughout the
radiator, generally with an approximate
10°C - 12°C (20ºC for condensing boilers)
difference between the incoming flow of
water and the outgoing returning water.
 

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