condensation on downlights

[ElmerGantry102]

My daughter has had a single storey lean-to extension built.
The roof has 4" insulation above the insulated plasterboard ceiling as per current building regs. The ceiling has 9 downlights which are supposed to be led, but she is not sure if they have installed thge right type. the electrician told my daughter's husband that prior to the ceiling being finished he should cut out the 4" insulation as a slot 4" wide between the rafters where each light goes to facilitate wiring and fixing the lights. He did this and the ceiling was plasterboarded and skimmed. The electrician cut circular holes for the downlights plus other holes adjacent to help fish the wires through. Now the lights are fixed and each one is dripping with water due to condensation because the lights are very cold and the room is heated; also a cold draught is coming through each light.
What can they do to overcome this problem, and what was the point in having a well insulated ceiling to cut it away in 9 places?

HELP!

 

[EFLImpudence]

The insulation should not have been cut.

You seem to have figured it out already.
You have nine chimneys.

 

[ElmerGantry102]

The insulation should not have been cut.

You seem to have figured it out already.
You have nine chimneys.

B

Can this installation be tested and signed off /certificated as planned tomorrow with light fittings with condensation on them?

 

[RF Lighting]

I very much doubt it, as your building does not comply with building regulations.

 

[ElmerGantry102]

Thanks for that. How can you successfully put downlighters in a insulated ceiling without comprising the insulation value of the ceiling?

 

[RF Lighting]

Short of building a false ceiling void specifically to house the lights, it is not possible to install recessed lighting into a vaulted ceiling without compromising the insulation.

They are the wrong choice of lighting for this installation as you have found out, and making good the problem will be no easy task.

Sorry there is no good news for you.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The only good news aspect is:

the electrician told my daughter's husband that prior to the ceiling being finished he should cut out the 4" insulation as a slot 4" wide between the rafters where each light goes to facilitate wiring and fixing the lights. ... The electrician cut circular holes for the downlights plus other holes adjacent to help fish the wires through.

The electrician is responsible for the cock up, so it's down to him to pay for the remedial works.

 

[Taylortwocities]

The electrician is responsible for the cock up, so it's down to him to pay for the remedial works.

Indeed. So that the Building Notice can be signed off by the LABC they will expect your electrician to "self notify" the works to his Competent Person's Scheme.

As well as making sure the works are electrically safe, his responsibility is for the work he has done complies with all of the other Building Regulations.

He hasn't as by chopping big holes in the thermal insulation he has cocked up
B.R. L1 (Conservation of Fuel & Power) LABC are very hot on this issue. He's probably at fault with B.R. B (Fire Safety) and C (Resistance to Contaminants & Moisture). This may depend on the type of downlight fittings he has installed. But in general, as per the above. No good news.

Where I have seen this problem before, the solution has been to reinstate the insulation, and to fit surface lights instead of downlights.

 

[ElmerGantry102]

The electrician is responsible for the cock up, so it's down to him to pay for the remedial works.

Indeed. So that the Building Notice can be signed off by the LABC they will expect your electrician to "self notify" the works to his Competent Person's Scheme.

As well as making sure the works are electrically safe, his responsibility is for the work he has done complies with all of the other Building Regulations.

He hasn't as by chopping big holes in the thermal insulation he has cocked up
B.R. L1 (Conservation of Fuel & Power) LABC are very hot on this issue. He's probably at fault with B.R. B (Fire Safety) and C (Resistance to Contaminants & Moisture). This may depend on the type of downlight fittings he has installed. But in general, as per the above. No good news.

Where I have seen this problem before, the solution has been to reinstate the insulation, and to fit surface lights instead of downlights.

Thanks guys for all your help. doesent say much for the Great British tradesman does it?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

When they extended the Building Regulations to include electrical work there were thousands, tens of thousands, of electricians who were so incensed by the idea that they should have to pay less than the price of a pint per day to be allowed to say that their work complied with the law that they refused to even acknowledge that there was more to what they did than purely electrical considerations. They refused to see that cutting holes in ceilings could have consequences for thermal insulation performance, for ventilation and condensation, for fire resistance, they refused to see that cutting away at walls and drilling holes in joists could have structural engineering consequences, and so on.

And you are quite right - what it says about the Great British Tradesman is that he is typically pig ignorant, utterly unwilling to learn, and utterly unwilling to accept change.

What it says about the Great British Tradesman is that he is still sometimes pig ignorant, utterly unwilling to learn, and utterly unwilling to accept change.

I bet that the guy who advised your son-in-law and cut holes in the ceiling either had no idea that he had to think about anything other than the wiring aspects, or just didn't give a toss. Was he a member of one of the Competent Person schemes, such as NICEIC, NAPIT etc?

When they applied for Building Regulations approval, what did they say would be done to ensure compliance with the Building Regulations, specifically in this case Parts C, L & P?

 

[RF Lighting]

Whilst there was a huge amount of resistance to the regularisation of electrical work, I think it's been a good move. When I started as an apprentice, the test kit was used purely for fault finding and as long as new installations passed the bang test they were good to be left in service.

Now installations are routinely tested and certified before being put into service. Whilst the industry is still far from perfect it's in a much better situation than it used to be, and having contractors routinely inspected by a governing body hopefully contractors doing bodge jobs like the OPs will slowly be re-educated or weeded out of the industry.

It was never going to be an overnight change, but proper electricians, especially those coming into the industry are more aware of all the regulations governing their work, and not just the electrical ones, and are really working hard to do a proper fully compliant job.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I'm sure it isn't as bad as it used to be.

I'm also sure that some holdouts remain.

 

[RF Lighting]

There are definitely some holdouts still remaining, but even these seen to be getting better slowly. The biggest problem these days are the people masquerading as electricians having done a course at college with no proper formal training.

Electricianing is a complicated job which takes many years to learn properly. The fault lies solely at the door of these training companies claiming to make someone an electrician in just five weeks! Even the proper apprenticeship has been dumbed down. For example our apprentices are no longer taught pyro work at college which is inexcusable in my opinion.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I feel sorry for people who have been misled by training organisations and (shamefully) the Competent Person scheme organisers into thinking that a 5-day training course, a couple of trivial examples of their work and some basic understanding of how to use test equipment will make them an electrician, but not sorry enough to agree with them trying to sell their services to Joe Public.