Connecting electric towel rail in zone 2

[Kaymo]

Currently renovating bathroom, and have found two electrical sockets. They were both inside cupboards/cabinets, but regardless of whether that was allowed or not, the cabinets are now gone so I need to get the sockets out of the bathroom. Luckily enough I have been able to just pull them under the floor and fix them on the other side of the bathroom walls.

However, I will need power in the bathroom for an electric towel rail and my understanding is that I can take a fused spur off one of these and bring it into the bathroom for the heated towel rail. The towel rail has its own built in IP rated switch and the whole unit is rated to zone 1, although I will be fitting it in zone 2. However, the cable from the towel rail is not long enough to reach a fused spur outside the bathroom and from what I can gather a switched fused spur is definitely not allowed in zone 2, and even an un-switched fused spur seems to be at least a grey area.

Would an acceptable solution be to fit a switched fused spur beside the socket that I have moved outside of the bathroom (it is on an RCD protected circuit), then run a flex from there under the floor and up the inside of the wall to a connection plate/flex outlet plate, where it would connect to the flex from the towel rail. Then fit a blank over the connection plate. The towel rail flex outlet has a fitting to allow it to go straight into the wall so there would be no cable visible inside the bathroom and the connection could be accessed behind the blanking plate if it needs to be inspected.

Does this sound ok?

 

[JohnD]

How far away are they from the nearest fixed bath or shower footprint?

 

[Kaymo]

Rail edge is about 100mm from shower cubicle. Connection plate would be 400-500mm away at most.

 

[Kaymo]

Anyone any thoughts on this? Unswitched fuse spur ok in zone 2, or use a connection plate and unswitched fused spur outside of the bathroom?

Or something else.

Much appreciated.

 

[flameport]

Unswitched fuse spur ok in zone 2

Yes.

a connection plate and unswitched fused spur outside of the bathroom

Could do.

It's your bathroom - fit things how you want.
Switches are not permitted in zone 2, unswitched items are.

 

[Kaymo]

It's your bathroom - fit things how you want.

Don't tell me that, i'll have a couple of sockets, a convector heater and a radio balanced on the edge of the bath. Toasty!

Switches are not permitted in zone 2, unswitched items are.

This was my understanding, but I seemed to be finding so many conflicting views on this on various forums, with some arguing that an unswitched fcu is technically a switch if you take the fuse out. Others saying that an unswitched fcu is ok but it has to be IPX4 rated to be in zone 2, except that I can't find any that specifically say they are IPX4 rated.

If I was to only apply my own judgement, I would have said that an unswitched fcu, with the cables connected to to the rear, would be safe. Someone would have to go at it with a screwdriver, wet and naked to be a risk, and you can't account for that!

 

[333rocky333]

Its not just others saying it, its in the regs.
No accessories incorporating switches allowed in zone 2.
Accessories in zone 2 to be at least ipX4

 

[EFLImpudence]

with some arguing that an unswitched fcu is technically a switch if you take the fuse out.

That must take some arguing when it is called an "unswitched ...".

Others saying that an unswitched fcu is ok but it has to be IPX4 rated to be in zone 2, except that I can't find any that specifically say they are IPX4 rated.

None is marked IPX4 and that classification is only 'splash-proof'.

If I was to only apply my own judgement, I would have said that an unswitched fcu, with the cables connected to to the rear, would be safe. Someone would have to go at it with a screwdriver, wet and naked to be a risk, and you can't account for that!

Exactly.


If you wanted and possible, you could run the cable (unbroken and unconnected) through a flex-outlet in the bathroom to the accessory on the other side of the wall.

 

[Kaymo]

Its not just others saying it, its in the regs.
No accessories incorporating switches allowed in zone 2.
Accessories in zone 2 to be at least ipX4

The 'accessory', presumably the shower rail, is IP55 including the built in control, so could be installed in zone 1, which would be a weird place to hang a towel, so is ok in zone 2. Its the electrical connection that I am concerned with. If 'accessory' also includes the unswitched fcu, and this needs to be IPX4 then this is the part that has me confused as when I look at u-fcu's, none seem to say specifically in the specs that they are IPX4.

That must take some arguing when it is called an "unswitched ...".

Yeah, this was on electricians forums, I think one was the IEEE forum. Maybe the guy was just losing the argument so trying to argue that if you take a fuse out it becomes a switch, but I think his main point was that its a potential area for water/steam ingress, and that however unlikely, a wet member of the public could access it to change the fuse. To be fair to the guy I think he was just trying to make it as safe as possible and was muddling his argument with switches.

None is marked IPX4 and that classification is only 'splash-proof'.

This is where I am confused. If no U-FCU's are rated as IPX4, and quoting Rocky above anything "in zone 2 to be at least ipX4, then it sounds like it can't go in zone 2.

If you wanted and possible, you could run the cable (unbroken and unconnected) through a flex-outlet in the bathroom to the accessory on the other side of the wall.

Sorry, I should have been clearer. The only place the towel rail can go is on an outside wall, and too far from an inside wall to connect this way.


However, what I could do, if allowed, is drop the cable down the back of the plasterboard, make a connection behind the skirting to extend the flex with for example a Ashley J803 maintenance free box and run the extended cable under the floor to an U-FCU outside of the bathroom. My understanding is that these Ashley boxes don't need to be accessible so maybe this would be the solution that would remove the connection from any location where it could be splashed?

 

[EFLImpudence]

The 'accessory', presumably the shower rail, is IP55 including the built in control, so could be installed in zone 1, which would be a weird place to hang a towel, so is ok in zone 2. Its the electrical connection that I am concerned with. If 'accessory' also includes the unswitched fcu, and this needs to be IPX4 then this is the part that has me confused as when I look at u-fcu's, none seem to say specifically in the specs that they are IPX4.

I agree it is confusing but IPX4 is a "requirement to be splashproof". Even a flex-outlet with a complete faceplate (with no holes at all) is not marked IPX4 even though it obviously is.

The difference between switched and unswitched is that people are unlikely to touch unswitched accessories in normal usage.

Yeah, this was on electricians forums, I think one was the IEEE forum. Maybe the guy was just losing the argument so trying to argue that if you take a fuse out it becomes a switch,

A fuse is NOT a switch.

but I think his main point was that its a potential area for water/steam ingress, and that however unlikely, a wet member of the public could access it to change the fuse. To be fair to the guy I think he was just trying to make it as safe as possible and was muddling his argument with switches.

Fair enough but then he is exceeding the requirements and so disregarding the regulations.

This is where I am confused. If no U-FCU's are rated as IPX4, and quoting Rocky above anything "in zone 2 to be at least ipX4, then it sounds like it can't go in zone 2.

That means you think things can only be IPX4 if it has IPX4 marked on it - re: faceplate with no means of water ingress.

Sorry, I should have been clearer. The only place the towel rail can go is on an outside wall, and too far from an inside wall to connect this way.

Ok. Have a flex outlet in zone 2 and a (switched) FCU farther away.

 

[Kaymo]

I agree it is confusing but IPX4 is a "requirement to be splashproof". Even a flex-outlet with a complete faceplate (with no holes at all) is not marked IPX4 even though it obviously is.

Ok, so I think I am following you now, and maybe why I couldn't find my answer stated explicitly anywhere. A switch is explicitly ruled out in zone 2 by the regulations, that's always been clear to me. An un-switched fcu is not explicitly ruled out, or by the same token, allowed in zone 2, but it is left to the installers judgement as to whether it can be considered splashproof (which is a vague term), in the context. In this case, the fact that the shower is inside a fixed cubicle so the only likelyhood of splashes is the odd random drop that might occasionally hit the unit when someone reaches for the towel. In that context I would judge it to be safe.

It sounds like extending the cable with a maintenance free junction box would also be safe and within regulations, although maybe unconventional.


Thanks for the help, and sorry if I am sounding pedantic, just trying to understand.

 

[EFLImpudence]

It sounds like extending the cable with a maintenance free junction box would also be safe and within regulations, although maybe unconventional.

Yes, probably - but - if I am understanding correctly, why can the flex from the radiator not just run behind the plasterboard to an FCU outside zone 2? Surely it is long enough for that.

This would enable removal and replacement by fishing through the flex without having to access a junction box.

 

[333rocky333]

The 'accessory', presumably the shower rail, is IP55 including the built in control, so could be installed in zone 1, which would be a weird place to hang a towel, so is ok in zone 2. Its the electrical connection that I am concerned with. If 'accessory' also includes the unswitched fcu, and this needs to be IPX4 then this is the part that has me confused as when I look at u-fcu's, none seem to say specifically in the specs that they are IPX4

The Towel rail is electrical equipment.
The FCU is an accessory.

The Reg actually says Electrical equipment has to be at least IPX4.

In the definition of Electrical Equipment, amongst other things, includes any item for purpose of utilisation of energy, as well as accessories.

In the definition of Accessory, amongst other things is, a device, other than current using equipment, associated with such equipment.

I would class an FCU unit as a device, as you say normal FCU's are not IPX4, whether its acceptable to Diy and make it so, i don't know.

IPX4
Water splashing against the enclosure from any direction shall have no harmful effect, utilizing either: a) an oscillating fixture, or b) A spray nozzle with no shield.

Test a) is conducted for 10 minutes. Test b) is conducted (without shield) for 5 minutes minimum.

 

[Kaymo]

Yes, probably - but - if I am understanding correctly, why can the flex from the radiator not just run behind the plasterboard to an FCU outside zone 2? Surely it is long enough for that.

Towel rail is going on an outside wall. Cable is 1m long and it is more than that to get to the nearest internal wall. If I ran the cable away from the shower enclosure, I could obviously get more than 0.6m away and out of zone 2, but the wall becomes solid at that point where there is a disused fireplace, which means the cables and fcu would have to be run on the surface of the wall. I think if it is going in that location it has to be connected either on the surface of the wall in zone 2 with an FCU, or the cable extended.

 

[Kaymo]

IPX4
Water splashing against the enclosure from any direction shall have no harmful effect, utilizing either: a) an oscillating fixture, or b) A spray nozzle with no shield.

Test a) is conducted for 10 minutes. Test b) is conducted (without shield) for 5 minutes minimum.

Under these conditions then I of course couldn't say that there would be no harmful effect. In reality there isn't any way that could happen because the enclosure door opens away from the towel rail, but it sounds like the regs don't take account of type of shower enclosure, just the distance from it.

If this is the case it sounds like my only option is to use a connection and keep the U-FCU outside of the bathroom, or not fit the towel rail at all.