Copper Pipe damage.

[Onetap]

Can you give a quote in the regs where it says you cannot sheath buried copper pipe in closed-cell polythene insulation ?.

G7.1 and associated diagrams, P3.17 to 3.19, too much to type out, you'll have to buy the book.

Besides which, why would you want to? Plastic pipe-in-pipe, the mice can't nibble it in a wall chase, much easier than copper.

 

[Balenza]

Can you give a quote in the regs where it says you cannot sheath buried copper pipe in closed-cell polythene insulation ?.

G7.1 and associated diagrams, P3.17 to 3.19, too much to type out, you'll have to buy the book.

Besides which, why would you want to? Plastic pipe-in-pipe, the mice can't nibble it in a wall chase, much easier than copper.

It does not state you cannot use closed cell polythene insulation.
If you had any involvement in installation (unlikely) you would know what can and cannot be used.

 

[Onetap]

Says nothing about restrictions on using closed cell polythene insulation on copper pipework in this section .
It talks about concealed fitting and the latter part of R7.3 states "Where both cold and hot water pipes are located in this type of duct the pipes should be separately insulated over their full length".
I would have thought closed cell polythene fulfilled this category.

A bit economical with the quote there; you seem to have omitted the bit that disproves your argument.

The first bit of R7.3 requires that any pipe within a pipe sleeve, under or within the construction of a solid floor, shall be capable of being withdrawn from one or either end of the sleeve.

Copper pipe in closed cell insulation screeded into the floor doesn't comply with ths requirement. Plastic pipe is a sleeve does.

 

[Balenza]

Says nothing about restrictions on using closed cell polythene insulation on copper pipework in this section .
It talks about concealed fitting and the latter part of R7.3 states "Where both cold and hot water pipes are located in this type of duct the pipes should be separately insulated over their full length".
I would have thought closed cell polythene fulfilled this category.

Copper pipe in closed cell insulation screeded into the floor doesn't comply with ths requirement.

It does if its in a duct.

 

[Onetap]

Copper pipe in closed cell insulation screeded into the floor doesn't comply with ths requirement.

It does if its in a duct.

We're not talking about pipes in ducts. We are talking about pipes wrapped in insulation screeded into a floor or wall.

I have known people slide (unslit) climaflex pipe insulation over the pipe before backfilling. It is made of closed-cell polythene so presumably impervious (as well as allowing expansion and providing thermal insulation)

The regulations require that the pipe can be readily removed. You need to buy yourself that book, Balenza.

 

[Balenza]

Onetap wrote

We are talking about pipes wrapped in insulation screeded into a floor or wall.

And these could be copper CH pipes. JD made no mention of what type of system he was referring to.
The fact is it is perfectly reasonable to bury copper under the screed covered in an insulation and I have done it many times. (including the hot and cold distribution through out the property) Obviously the water main to the property is removable inside a duct.
Hi spec started on about the regulations in responce to his post which I considered tripe and still do.

The regulations require that the pipe can be readily removed

Yeah right.
Diagram G7.1c says it all.

 

[JohnD]

don't drag me into it

 

[Onetap]

Onetap wrote

The regulations require that the pipe can be readily removed

Yeah right.
Diagram G7.1c says it all.

Oh, dear. A shut mouth gathers no feet.

Diagram G7.1c shows a "pipe located in chase in ground supported concrete floor". The chase is not filled with screed.

You need to read the explanatory text on the previous page.

"Pipes located in a chase within a solid floor are generally only permissible for heating pipes and should not be concreted in or the chase filled with screeding material (see diagram G7.1c)"

The fact that you have done it many times before doesn't make it right. I made the others take such pipes out.

Have we met?

But again, why would you want to embed a copper pipe in plaster or screed? Why not use plastic in a sleeve, it is neater and complies with the regulations?

 

[Balenza]

Onetap wrote

The fact that you have done it many times before doesn't make it right.

It does.
I said under the screed. The chase is formed with the UF insulation. Then the pipe insulated. It could be closed cell polythene or Armaflex as I would normally use.
It common practise on new builds . I could show you a local development of about 50 new homes using this method.

I made the others take such pipes out.

Have we met

I doubt it.

But again, why would you want to embed a copper pipe in plaster or screed?

You don't unless its underfloor heating.

Why not use plastic in a sleeve

,


Because professionals like copper.
In any case its best to insulate the pipework. You also have T's distributing the necessary flows and extraction of the pipework is not possible anyway.

it is neater and complies with the regulations?

Its hidden. So will not make any difference.

 

[Onetap]

Onetap wrote

The fact that you have done it many times before doesn't make it right.

It does.
I said under the screed. The chase is formed with the UF insulation. Then the pipe insulated. It could be closed cell polythene or Armaflex

This entire thread has been about plastering/screeding a pipe into a wall/floor chase. It was stated by Hi-Spec, early on, that this did not comply with the Water Regulations and you described that statement as "complete tripe ".

We have now established that it is indeed prohibited by the Water Regulations, mostly as a result of your posting references that you hadn't read.

Trying to qualify what you had said (i.e., you meant heating systems, you meant in the insulation, you meant under the screed) doesn't alter the simple fact that you were wrong and you are pretty clueless about what you're doing.

Because professionals like copper.

First, you are not a professional; I'd suggest you look up the meaning of that word in the OED before engaging gob.

Second, I like copper, it's great stuff. I like PEX too, it's also great stuff. No-one has used copper for UF heating or plumbing since the days of Levittown.

Its hidden. So will not make any difference.

When it fails, you'll get dragged into a court for civil damages. I suspect the practice is also disallowed in the relevant BS for heating, but can't be bothered to look.

Curiously, I got asked to look at a leak from a shower today. It wasn't the shower that was near the damp patch; it was the radiator opposite. The leak was concealed by the vinyl floor; big slodges of corrosion products around both F&R pipes where they emerge from the floor screed. I left them in the capable hands of their BG CH maintenance contract.

 

[Balenza]

Onetap wrote

This entire thread has been about plastering/screeding a pipe into a wall/floor chase

No. it isin't.
Its about whether or not copper pipe insulated with closed-cell polythene can be laid under the screed as far as I am concerned and the facts so far clearly indicate that this is possible.

It was stated by Hi-Spec, early on, that this did not comply with the Water Regulations and you described that statement as "complete tripe ".

No , it was stated by Hi Spec that you cannot install closed cell polythene insulated pipework in the screed due to the regs.

We have now established that it is indeed prohibited by the Water Regulations, mostly as a result of your posting references that you hadn't read.

No. We have established that its fine to lay CH pipes (according to the regs) under the screed in closed cell insulation.
If you want a look at 50 new build homes having the H&C distribution being installed in copper under the screed and non extractable then I shall post you the details of the locality.

Trying to qualify what you had said (i.e., you meant heating systems, you meant in the insulation, you meant under the screed) doesn't alter the simple fact that you were wrong and you are pretty clueless about what you're doing.

No I was right. You were wrong.

First, you are not a professional; I'd suggest you look up the meaning of that word in the OED before engaging gob.

And you think you are one obviously.
Given some of your ramblings on here I find that very hard to believe.

When it fails, you'll get dragged into a court for civil damages. I suspect the practice is also disallowed in the relevant BS for heating, but can't be bothered to look.

No. When it fails you repair it.
I suspect you do a runner. People like you are good at looking up BS (Bullsh@it) information which is totally irellevant to the real world.

Curiously, I got asked to look at a leak from a shower today. It wasn't the shower that was near the damp patch; it was the radiator opposite. The leak was concealed by the vinyl floor; big slodges of corrosion products around both F&R pipes where they emerge from the floor screed. I left them in the capable hands of their BG CH maintenance contract.

Yes. Its best to leave it to someone capable which you clearly are not.