Crimea and Scottish Referenda

[Corgigrouch]

Indeed, Ukraine does need to suck it up and forget about Crimea, it ain't coming back. Unfortunately Ukrainians are famously very stubborn.

Ukraine has a golden opportunity here to actually get itself off the ground, as the eyes of the world are watching it and investment is starting to flow towards it. Ukraine has one huge advantage, it has masses of underutilised rich and fetile land for growing crops and could potetially become a wealthy nation exporting stuff that the world actually needs..

Only time will prove me right or wrong on the Naval base but the Black sea fleet has very little value these days.

 

[JBR]

Well whatever happens I think we should keep our noses out for once.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Any oil?

 

[ladylola]

Well the yanks wouldn't be sticking their noses in if there wasn't
http://rt.com/business/crimea-gazprom-exploration-request-598/

 

[Corgigrouch]

Ah yes, RT that shining beacon of Propaganda....Try reading some of the readers comments, the majority hate Jews, Gays, Blacks, anyone not Russian.....Oh and Nazis.

 

[mark vincent]

Russian troops invaded the country of Ukraine and took part of its land for itself.

That's not actually true, by the way. Putin ordered in a larger contingent than was already present. But, only up to the maximum agreed limit of 25,000. Furthermore, not a single death or injury from fighting between the Russian contingent and Ukrainian forces occurred prior to or during the vote. Indeed, you may be forgiven for not knowing it, given the lack of coverage in Western media, but there is a significant revolt against the Kiev coup all across Ukraine, but particularly on its eastern flank.

Don't tell me you are one of those muppets who hangs on the every word of RT? Russia has imported troops and special forces from Russia to not only Crimea but also eastern Ukraine to whip up decent among those who live and work in the eastern region who are fearful of their livelihood.. I have seen the previous government drive Ukraine down into the ground over the last few years and the Russians are sore that their puppet Yanukovich has been sent packing....With a huge chunk of stolen cash... How do I know this? I speak to my friends who live both in Ukraine and Russia on a daily basis...

Yanukovich was the democratically elected President of Ukraine he had agreed to bring forward the date for new elections why didn't the protesters what for the results of the new elections, As for corruption isn't it endemic in Ukraine on all sides, What about EU corruption then, last year it was £ 149 billion that is more than the entire GDP of Ukraine.
As for the "Brutal invasion of Ukraine" no shots were fired and no one was killed maybe thats why the neocons are so furious, no shock and awe and body parts everywhere, the Yanks love a good show of force it's good for the tv ratings.
The Yanks have been invading other peoples countries for decades, they have also overthrown democracies when it suited them so why are they spouting about freedom in Ukraine, the people of Ukraine on all sides are the real losers their country could become another Syria.
Can anyone answer this question if Nato decided to "liberate" Crimea by invading would the people there rush out of their homes to welcome Nato as "liberators" or would they rush out with their ak47's to attack them, how do you "liberate" people who don't want liberated.

 

[mark vincent]

I'm not pro Russian or pro Western but anyone with an ounce of impartiality can see that there are two sides to this story.
I watched John Kerry on TV saying that Peacefull protestors who were only looking for their freedom were attacked by a bloodthirsty tyrant and his Brutal police force, i then watched footage of the Ukrainian police being attacked by mobs armed with axes, iron bars, swords, petrol bombs as well as guns, i then thought to myself what would the Israeli police do if faced with a situation like this, all in all i think the demonstrators got off pretty lightly,

 

[ladylola]

Ah yes, RT that shining beacon of Propaganda....Try reading some of the readers comments, the majority hate Jews, Gays, Blacks, anyone not Russian.....Oh and Nazis.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/18/ukraine-crisis-gas-idUSL6N0MF1X020140318

Happy now?

 

[Corgigrouch]

Ah yes, RT that shining beacon of Propaganda....Try reading some of the readers comments, the majority hate Jews, Gays, Blacks, anyone not Russian.....Oh and Nazis.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/18/ukraine-crisis-gas-idUSL6N0MF1X020140318

Happy now?

No! Because Reuters may or may not be owned by the Rothschild family who are Jewish and so this may or may not be false flag information to make us think that sometimes RT do give an accurate report.....

For those who are uninitiated to the mad world of RT, this is the kind of reply that you could expect to see in the comments section....All of the posters make Joe90 seem sane and rational

 

[Corgigrouch]

I'm not pro Russian or pro Western but anyone with an ounce of impartiality can see that there are two sides to this story.
I watched John Kerry on TV saying that Peacefull protestors who were only looking for their freedom were attacked by a bloodthirsty tyrant and his Brutal police force, i then watched footage of the Ukrainian police being attacked by mobs armed with axes, iron bars, swords, petrol bombs as well as guns, i then thought to myself what would the Israeli police do if faced with a situation like this, all in all i think the demonstrators got off pretty lightly,

To be honest, I think that the real heroes of this fracas are the troops, sailors and police on both sides for having the strength to resist extreme provocation from unknown provocateures.. Even now Ukrainian troops who are trying to leave and had negotiated terms with the Russian military are being provoked and one has bee shot.... There is nothing that Ukraine can do about Crimea and they should move on as they have plenty other things to get on with, the troops need to return to Ukraine and be tasked with disarming civilians....Kiev need to make supervised elections a priority.. Unfortunately they don't seem to have have any obvious leaders in the bunch who are currently in charge...With a decent leader their future could be very bright indeed.

 

[ladylola]

http://www.transeuroenergy.com/s/Ukraine.asp

Shall we just say that the answer to the question is that there appears to be oil and gas in the Crimea?

Talking of resources there is the Donbas coal field in the eastern part of the country , and pretty much all the lands east of the Dneiper are Russian speaking, that is said to hold something like a trillion cubic meters of coal bed methane. Not good environmentally but a very significant resource which may have a part to play in the coming months.
Yanukovych is or at least was corrupt but he was the legitimate elected president of Ukraine and really the west lost any moral high ground when we didn't call for his immediate reinstatement .

 

[Corgigrouch]

Yanukovich had his hand in the till and so loses his legitimacy...He didn't just fail the Ukrainians, he deliberately betrayed them...They have every right to explode in fury.....

 

[jockscott]

Yanukovich had his hand in the till and so loses his legitimacy...He didn't just fail the Ukrainians, he deliberately betrayed them...They have every right to explode in fury.....

Much like some of our own politicians, who are/have failing/failed the great British public , at every turn of the way. (at least after yesterday, I can now get drunk whilst playing bingo)

 

[Mikefromlondon]

Why does the West consider the Crimean referendum illegal under international Law but accepts the Scottish Independence referendum as acceptable???.

Crimea votes to ally itself with Russia and not Ukraine as Scottish folk vote to ally themselves to Europe and not Great Britain.

If Crimea wants to be ruled by Putin, who are we to object. Similarly the Scots.

Whats the difference.

Seems like double standards to me.

I'm not expert and this is probably a stupid reply as i'm not thinking straight and taking 2 mins from a brain ache project but, Scotland is classed as a country. Isn't Crimea like the equivalent of a County (ie Gloucester - on a larger scale) not a county to Ukrane? Or is Ukrane made up of separate countries etc?

So it's more the case of it cant just be voted away as its not a country as such but an area or territory.

So this is a extract -

Ukraine is a unitary state composed of 24 oblasts (provinces), one autonomous republic (Crimea) and two cities with special status: Kiev, its capital and largest city and Sevastopol,

An autonomous republic is a type of administrative division similar to a province or state.

So even though classed as autonomous its still part of a country, not a country in it's self to be able to separate from the main body etc.

Just a thought so not entirely double standards based on this I don't think. Going by that way the entire UK could split each county in to independent "counties" or technically Warwick could want to join France and then we would have a chunk of France in the middle of the UK if you get my drift. Sorry if its a crude example but its just how I have interpreted the situation.

Also the Vote wasn't Yes or no to join Russia. It was basically would you like to join Russia A = Yes or B = Yes

So it isn't really democratic in regards they didn't have a choice really either way if its not or later.

Although I agree with op, what business is it ours what the people of Crimea chose who they want to be ruled by, Russia or Ukrain, but immagine if one of our town was populated by a certain group of people from another country, (any for that matter, let us say Tombuctu) and then imagine people of Bradford run an illegal referendum and 97% majority of Tumbktoons wants Bradford to be ruled by Tumbakto! amids Great Britain! So yes the refrundum was illegal. It goes against the soverignity of Ukrain (Pls excuse my bad spellings)

But things are not going tolook good, West threatening sanctions against Putin, and do you think he will sit back and swallow all insults and double standards of the West, nope,so get ready for gas embargo, soon we will be facing gas shortage that we get piped from Russia via Ukrain.

 

[mehran]

think its myth busting time...

the referendum did have an option that would keep Crimea in Ukrainian. Yanukovich was the democratically elected President of Ukraine(and technically he still is). The Ukraine people voted him in to office in open and free election...

and its for Ukraine people to vote him out. There was even an agreement to bring the new elections forward. Yet we cheer when some horrible thugs over throw a democratically elected government.

the EU and USA cheer to have neo-nazi in power in Europe of all places(and some of them are very much are neo-nazi...its not just Russian propagandize). Three far-right MPs even filmed them self's slapping about one of the heads of a Ukraine TV channel...and were proud of it .

the fact Russia has reacted was totally predictable(its what the US wanted). All of this is silly silly games.

Putin may be a complete dick and turning Crimea in to a geo political football(and that is all it is, Russia does not need the land) is pathetic but supporting the overthrow of a democratically elected government does not put the EU or USA in any better light.

we don't need this. there is enough crap in the world with out having it close to home...