CU replacement with a cheeky rewire chucked in..

[holmslaw]

..

 

[andilad]

Thanks Eric...

A comprehensive and slightly disheartening message.

Long gone are the days of being able to light up your eyes in the comfort of your own home!

So I am left with the option of leaving what I consider old an unsafe wiring, so I don't break any rules... or to replace it; to a standard *I* am happy with, and keep it under my hat.. or go the whole hog and spend money I don't have paying for work I would happily do, done by someone else!

I had previously seen the Part P document and feel quite comfortable with it, from a getting the right kit, putting in the right way/place etc... I expected an outside contractor would be happy to test and fix my work to certify it.. as long as it's all easy to access etc.. The feedback suggesting this would be unlikely is a bummer. Not sure how to proceed.. will have to think on it..

Thanks again
Andy

 

[holmslaw]

..

 

[TopTrumper]

Its nearly every bleedin single post and topic, the usual suspects just droning on and on and on about notification, part p,...jesus, dont you get tired of listening to yourselves.

 

[Pensdown]

Thanks Eric...

A comprehensive and slightly disheartening message.

although some what misleading, as BAS as pointed out.

Long gone are the days of being able to light up your eyes in the comfort of your own home!

Far from it. I just completed a self build, within all current building regs and to the satisfaction of building control. But I spent an awful lot of time reading and learning. If you're prepared to do that there is no reason whatsoever why you can't re-wire your house. If you learn 50% the posters will help you with the other 50%.

I had previously seen the Part P document and feel quite comfortable with it, from a getting the right kit, putting in the right way/place etc... I expected an outside contractor would be happy to test and fix my work to certify it.. as long as it's all easy to access etc.. The feedback suggesting this would be unlikely is a bummer. Not sure how to proceed.. will have to think on it..

Unless you have a sparky mate who can self certify forget trying to find a sparks to sign it off. Also, as a DIyer you don't need one.
Have a look in the Wiki and buy a few of the recommend books.

Thanks to some of the guys here the wiki is also full of useful tips.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Rewiring a house is not to be undertaken lightly.

Whilst Eric was a bit OTT in his prophecies of doom, not notifying a task like that could easily bite you on the bum years down the line, and if you happen to be selling when the market is like it is now it could cost you a lot of money.

It's clear from the things people say that a lot of them do not understand the notification rules, and there are still people who don't even know Part P exists.

So I see nothing wrong with trying to remedy their ignorance.

If you find that so unbearable feel free to click on Next Topic at any time...

 

[securespark]

Theory and practice are very different. And be under no illusion breaking seals is an offence and what happens varies area to area with some areas taking not a blind bit of notice and others prosecuting every breach.

Can you provide any evidence, not "someone told me", of anybody, be they electrician or DIYer, being prosecuted for tampering with the fuse seal if
a) Nothing bad happened, and
b) They didn't do it to steal electricity
?

A couple of years ago, I visited a house in Staffs. It was a TT supply & the global RCD had failed. As it was a dangerous situation, I phoned my manager to request permission to cut the seal & replace the RCD. He gave me the go ahead, asking me to refer the MEB (or whoever they are now...) to him if there was a problem.

So, I did this, then phoned MEB to get the cut-out re-sealed. I really am too honest for my own good.

I was threatened, in no uncertain terms, with legal action if I ever pulled such a stunt again.

This was, I found out much later, followed up by a call from their legal department to my manager with the same threat.

They are VERY touchy about it!

 

[securespark]

Its nearly every bleedin single post and topic, the usual suspects just droning on and on and on about notification, part p,...jesus, dont you get tired of listening to yourselves.

It's a necessary evil. We feel we have to advise people here of the legalities, being conscientious, professional guys.

You may not. That is your choice.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I was threatened, in no uncertain terms, with legal action if I ever pulled such a stunt again.

This was, I found out much later, followed up by a call from their legal department to my manager with the same threat.

They are VERY touchy about it!

It was all bluster.

Yes, what you did was illegal. DNOs, however, have no power to bring prosecutions. Given the circumstances of what you did, how likely is it do you think that their legal department could convince the CPS that a prosecution would be in the public interest?

 

[ericmark]

Yes ban-all-sheds maybe I over stated but not sure about can't stop DIY. Maybe the LABC can't stop you as such but he can require you to rip out and start again.
As you say if one knows what one is doing then sticking to ones guns you can get it all done.
They were very insistence with me that I had to provide all the installation paperwork and only if they are not satisfied with it do they need to retest.
They are responsible for site safety and as such they can insist on a level of skill as to what happens if one does not have that level I don't know.
I do know there have been a few cases where there has been a reconsideration in prosecuting when seals were found removed after a building firm was found to have been bridging the card meter to complete work on council houses and it has been considered that marking on the meters may have not been done by the occupants of the houses but builders so have been squashed but you can bet your life they will not be caught twice on that.
Most supply agents will fit an isolator because of the problem with safety and it is so easy to claim a consumer unit was damaged and as an emergency it was changed and as such Part P can be done after the event and you also have just cause to pull fuse. But I would not like to rely on that.
I personally think Part P creates more danger than it removes with indiscriminate use of extension leads and as a result lack of earthing and since Part P refers to BS 7671:2001 I am not sure of legal standing.
But TV license refers to apparatus for receiving TV broadcast radio signals which when I went to school was an aerial yet people have been done for having colour video recorder on black and white license so reading it as written does not work.
Although I see what you are saying as to time and building inspection if you get smart with them they also do it to you like asking for method statements and risk assessments although a builder may be able to show he had men waiting on inspection so had to continue with DIY that hardly holds water.
I have never seen an installation that is perfect and if you annoy building control I am sure they will get their own back. Part M is one problem where it states heights etc. Mount a thermostat too low, or no fire stop in a hole. If you upset them you will not win.
There are so many rules and regulations with L1, M, P etc if they don't get you on one they will on another. Sweet talk is better method.
As to selling house depends on solicitor but many are now asking for completion certs and they in turn advise their client who in turn may ignore what they say but it is likely to slow sale down. Insurance as yet have not been reported as refusing and we all know we should get PIR every 10 years but if a fire it was easy to say PIR was burnt but with completion certs held by council so not so easy to get around. Is it worth risk?
So yes maybe I over stated case but I still think from what I have found with LABC is they don't like Part P and are not very helpful.
As to what a council officer can do we have seen in this area how a dog warden has reported lorry drivers for smoking so do you really believe the LABC will not report seal removal?
Eric

 

[ericmark]

Sorry andilad if I have put you off it was not my intention all I wanted to do is make sure you know what you are letting yourself into. That done I will help all I can. The forms can be down loaded from IET web site without the on line version written across them. Also be aware of the Flexishield and Guardian cables with do not require RCD protection. There has been a corrigenda to 17th Edition which gives a very handy insight to what can be done with ring mains there is a big debate between ring mains and radial due to 1/3 rules on drilling beams and radials may in some cases be better than rings the problem is cable length about 70 meters max of 2.5mm in a ring seems a lot until you see how many times one goes up and down a wall. If you do go ahead I wish you all the best and hope it goes well.
Eric

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Yes ban-all-sheds maybe I over stated but not sure about can't stop DIY. Maybe the LABC can't stop you as such but he can require you to rip out and start again.

Can he, if it complies with the Building Regulations?

Has he ever, even just once?

They were very insistence with me that I had to provide all the installation paperwork and only if they are not satisfied with it do they need to retest.
They are responsible for site safety and as such they can insist on a level of skill as to what happens if one does not have that level I don't know.

Sounds to me like you were turned over by yours, and you think that they are allowed to behave like that.

I do know there have been a few cases where there has been a reconsideration in prosecuting when seals were found removed after a building firm was found to have been bridging the card meter to complete work on council houses and it has been considered that marking on the meters may have not been done by the occupants of the houses but builders so have been squashed but you can bet your life they will not be caught twice on that.

I did say ... b) They didn't do it to steal electricity. If someone had been prosecuted it would have been for theft.

since Part P refers to BS 7671:2001 I am not sure of legal standing.

It only refers to it in the definition of "special location", so as BS 7671:2001 still exists I don't see how it affects the legal standing of The Building Regulations.

But TV license refers to apparatus for receiving TV broadcast radio signals which when I went to school was an aerial yet people have been done for having colour video recorder on black and white license so reading it as written does not work.

Err.. no - the apparatus for receiving signals is the TV, or the tuner/decoder in the video recorder, not the aerial.

I have never seen an installation that is perfect and if you annoy building control I am sure they will get their own back. Part M is one problem where it states heights etc. Mount a thermostat too low, or no fire stop in a hole.

Part M does not apply to rewires, only new build.

Unless your house has more than one fire compartment no special measures are needed to stop holes.

If you upset them you will not win.

If you upset them they may give you a hard time but ultimately they could not stand up in court and say that they denied you your completion certificate because you upset them.

There are so many rules and regulations with L1, M, P etc if they don't get you on one they will on another.

Don't contravene any and give them grounds then.

Sweet talk is better method.

Without doubt.

As to selling house depends on solicitor but many are now asking for completion certs and they in turn advise their client who in turn may ignore what they say but it is likely to slow sale down.

Indeed, which is why I don't agree with the attitude of people like TopTrumper.

Insurance as yet have not been reported as refusing and we all know we should get PIR every 10 years but if a fire it was easy to say PIR was burnt but with completion certs held by council so not so easy to get around. Is it worth risk?

I wonder what the risk actually is.

So yes maybe I over stated case but I still think from what I have found with LABC is they don't like Part P and are not very helpful.

Indeed they don't, and are not, but fortunately they are not allowed to break or ignore laws just because they happen not to like them.

As to what a council officer can do we have seen in this area how a dog warden has reported lorry drivers for smoking so do you really believe the LABC will not report seal removal?

Maybe they would, if they could ever find the right person to report it to, but even so what are the DNO actually going to do in practice?

There are all sorts of good reasons why people should not be advised to pull the fuse - there's no need to dilute them by adding reasons which are fanciful in practice.

 

[andilad]

Well all in all, I think I have more understanding of what's involved - outside of the technical aspects of doing the job.

I will ask around my area to see if anyone has experience of helpful, or unhelpful building control officer.. see what my chances of keeping on their right side are.

 

[Chri5]

With LABC's generally refusing to do inspection and test, cert work on Part P works I'd imagine the costs are high'ish.

If notification is £300, a series of viewings (say 5 viewing at £100) and then a 3rd party contractor tester commissioned by the LABC £300 odd, that totals out at over £1000.

Now finding a friendly spark that agrees to allow you to chop walls for route and back boxes and carcass out the cabling on the understanding that routes won't be closed unless he inspects them, shouldn't be impossible to find.

Then allow the spark to inspect the terminated and open fittings on the circuits, terminate the CU and carry out the full range of certification tests.

Subject to various on site conditions, the area you live in and the availability of electricians I suspect the cost wouldn't be much higher than the LABC costs.

The advantage being by contracting a spark you avoid the LABC hassle and potential never ending charges for viewings and inspections and with luck the pace of work can be done to mirror your work rate against his availability.

If you intend to try this route I'd suggest you read up on 17th edition, understand the building regs and the safe zones for cable route- then if you find a sparks willing to work to the scenario suggested he should be confident to allow your work intentions due to the knowledge you have gained.

If you do intend to go 80:20 then consider TV, BT, Data and Sky service points in addition to the electrical work.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

With LABC's generally refusing to do inspection and test, cert work on Part P works I'd imagine the costs are high'ish.

If they refuse to inspect & test themselves then the costs to them are high-ish. They may not pass those costs on to the applicant, nor may they require the applicant to subcontract the I&T himself - the guidance in Approved Document P and the instructions from the DCLG to LABCs are quite clear on this.

If notification is £300, a series of viewings (say 5 viewing at £100) and then a 3rd party contractor tester commissioned by the LABC £300 odd, that totals out at over £1000.

They may not make the applicant pay that extra £700.

Subject to various on site conditions, the area you live in and the availability of electricians I suspect the cost wouldn't be much higher than the LABC costs.

Higher than the LABC costs, which are their responsibility, or the notification fee, which is all they may make the applicant pay?

The advantage being by contracting a spark you avoid the LABC hassle and potential never ending charges for viewings and inspections and with luck the pace of work can be done to mirror your work rate against his availability.

Never ending charges are a problem for the LABC - they may not make the applicant pay them.