Dbl 13 amp socket

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

So go on then, tell us what you did to prove it was safe?
If you did an electrical apprenticeship, you should know how to perform these task and some will say you have a responsibility to do so!

 

[Iggifer]

Space wise, 4x2.5 is no different to 2x2.5 doubled back on themselves (I'm assuming the 4x2.5 were not bent double)

 

[JohnW2]

Space wise, 4x2.5 is no different to 2x2.5 doubled back on themselves (I'm assuming the 4x2.5 were not bent double)

Indeed - and. FWIW, total-CSA-wise less than 3 x 4mm² or 2 x 6mm² (which a good few sockets, like MK ones, say, they will accommodate).

Kind Regards, John

 

[deadshort]

I have a building where all the RFC's are wired in 4mm, this is common practice in public buildings.

Yes, I understand that but the question was asked in a DIY forum, hence very probably related to a domestic installation rather than one in a public building, hence my comment that it was "relatively unlikely" that it was a 4mm² ring, even though it's obviously not impossible.

As a matter of interest, what OPD is used with the 4mm² ring finals you refer to, and do they also use 4mm² for spurs (if they have any)?

Kind Regards, John

32a mcb and no spurs.

Regards,

DS

 

[JohnW2]

As a matter of interest, what OPD is used with the 4mm² ring finals you refer to, and do they also use 4mm² for spurs (if they have any)?

32a mcb and no spurs.

Thanks. Why 4mm² (or, alternatively, why a ring?), I wonder - cable installation method, EFLI/VD considerations with a long circuit, or just conservatism/overkill?

Kind Regards, John

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

There's no harm in asking what is a perfectly valid question.

A valid question indeed and even more so when the OP stated the work is safe!
I only wanted to know, how the OP proved this?

The problem is, of course, that we know what would be the truthful answer in the case of the vast majority of DIY electrical work -

We regrettably do, but when someone actually states the work is safe, it would be nice to know how they had evaluated this

so I'm not convinced that much is often achieved by asking the question.

You only achieve anything, if the question is answered honestly, and I for one think it is important that the welfare and a safeguard of life is paramount. So if we prevent at least one dangerous occurrence, we have achieved!

As a matter of interest, what would you personally regard as the minimum 'acceptable' amount of testing of DIY work.

I think as a minimal that continuity of the circuit conductors is proved, that polarity is confirmed, IR is above the recommended value and disconnection times are met.

Do you feel that no DIY electrical work should be undertaken unless the person concerned has the knowledge and equipment to undertake 'full proper tests' (as you or I would do), or would you say that something less than that would be 'acceptable' (even if not ideal)

I personally think, DIY work, when there is a risk to life, should be undertaken by a responsible person, who knows what they are doing, to at least a level that they are not going harm themselves or others and they can prove this.

 

[deadshort]

As a matter of interest, what OPD is used with the 4mm² ring finals you refer to, and do they also use 4mm² for spurs (if they have any)?

32a mcb and no spurs.

Thanks. Why 4mm² (or, alternatively, why a ring?), I wonder - cable installation method, EFLI/VD considerations with a long circuit, or just conservatism/overkill?

Kind Regards, John

Longvity.


Kind regards,

DS

 

[JohnW2]

... so I'm not convinced that much is often achieved by asking the question.

You only achieve anything, if the question is answered honestly, and I for one think it is important that the welfare and a safeguard of life is paramount. So if we prevent at least one dangerous occurrence, we have achieved!

I obviously don't disagree with that last bit. My point was that asking the question and getting a truthful answer (which, as you have agreed, we know what is going to be in the vast majority of cases) is not, in itself, going to change anything. Only if the person was stimulated, by having been asked the question, into acquiring the knowledge and means to undertake adequate testing would anything have been achieved.

As a matter of interest, what would you personally regard as the minimum 'acceptable' amount of testing of DIY work.

I think as a minimal that continuity of the circuit conductors is proved, that polarity is confirmed, IR is above the recommended value and disconnection times are met.

... but you presumably accept (even if you disapprove) that that 'minimum' is not often going to be attained? In terms of the person who does only very occasional electrical DIY work (like, I imagine, the great majority of those who come to ask questions here), I think it is very reasonable to expect even them to have a multimeter and know how to use it, so that they could check continuity, polarity etc. However, I don't think it is realistic to expect them to have, or acquire, the means of undertaking IR or EFLI tests (or to have a means of testing RCDs). If one insists on your 'minimum' of testing (which I can't disagree would be highly desirable), one would therefore effectively be saying that almost none of the electrical DIY work we hear about should be done by DIYers. Is that your view?

Kind Regards, John

 

[deadshort]

I would ban all diy electrical work , UNLESS you have rcd protection on all circuits. And the earth loop impedance is compliant, and is checked annually by the DNO.

DS

 

[JohnW2]

I would ban all diy electrical work , UNLESS you have rcd protection on all circuits. And the earth loop impedance is compliant, and is checked annually by the DNO.

Checked annually by the DNO?

If that's what you truly believe, and given that EFLI is obviously not going to be checked annually by the DNO, might I ask why you have chosen to participate in a "DIY electrics" forum - by participating, you appear to be encouraging something which you believe should be banned.

Kind Regards, John

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

My point was that asking the question and getting a truthful answer (which, as you have agreed, we know what is going to be in the vast majority of cases) is not, in itself, going to change anything. Only if the person was stimulated, by having been asked the question, into acquiring the knowledge and means to undertake adequate testing would anything have been achieved.

If on the odd occasion, with have convinced someone to either, stop and think about what they are, and either use themselves the procedures that prove safety or employ someone who can, we have achieved something.
I/we can not twist some ones arm up their back and insist that they do prove safety. But that does not mean we do not prompt them into doing so. Does Part P not say reasonable previsions of safety are required? How would you prove this without performing some tests? And this is a legal document that should be adhered to!

one would therefore effectively be saying that almost none of the electrical DIY work we hear about should be done by DIYers. Is that your view?

I have already expressed my view. Responsible precautions should be made for the safeguard of life.

 

[deadshort]

I would ban all diy electrical work , UNLESS you have rcd protection on all circuits. And the earth loop impedance is compliant, and is checked annually by the DNO.

Checked annually by the DNO?

If that's what you truly believe, and given that EFLI is obviously not going to be checked annually by the DNO, might I ask why you have chosen to participate in a "DIY electrics" forum - by participating, you appear to be encouraging something which you believe should be banned.

Kind Regards, John

To keep you're ego in line John


Regards,

DS

 

[JohnW2]

If on the odd occasion, with have convinced someone to either, stop and think about what they are, and either use themselves the procedures that prove safety or employ someone who can, we have achieved something. ... I/we can not twist some ones arm up their back and insist that they do prove safety. But that does not mean we do not prompt them into doing so.

I suppose it might occasionally achieve the desired aim and I agree that, if it does, then the effort is worthwhile. However, although we do occasionally see people who are persuaded by responses here not to attempt a particular job themselves, I'm not sure I can recall an occasion on which we have been aware of persuading someone to acquire the means and knowledge to do 'proper testing', particularly in relation to 'minor jobs'.

... one would therefore effectively be saying that almost none of the electrical DIY work we hear about should be done by DIYers. Is that your view?

I have already expressed my view. Responsible precautions should be made for the safeguard of life.

Yes, you have expressed your view in those terms before, and no-one can argue with that. However, you seem reticent to actually answer the specific question - since we know that, no matter what we advise, the vast majority of electrical DIYers are not going to undertake 'full proper tests' do you believe that this means that they are not taking 'responsible precautions' and therefore that they should not undertake any electrical work?

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

If that's what you truly believe, and given that EFLI is obviously not going to be checked annually by the DNO, might I ask why you have chosen to participate in a "DIY electrics" forum - by participating, you appear to be encouraging something which you believe should be banned.

To keep you're ego in line John

It's a pity that you jest about this, since it's an important and serious issue to which there is no ideal solution, and which often gets debated here.

The electricians here, and a few of the rest of us, could not really fail to take the view that electrical work is not really (necessarily) 'safe' unless the person undertaking it is adequately knowledgeable and competent, and undertakes all the 'proper tests'. However, a high proportion of the questions asked here are very basic, indicating a deficiency of knowledge (hence possibly deficient 'competence') and we know jolly well that the great majority of those asking these questions will not have the means (and/or knowledge) to undertake 'full proper tests'.

We all therefore have to decide whether to simply tell people, almost every time, that we won't answer their questions because they shouldn't be doing the work, or else to accept that we are to some extent condoning a 'less-than-satisfactory' (or worse) situation by giving some answers.

If we all took the view that we would not answer questions unless we were fairly confident that adequate testing would be undertaken, very few questions would get answered - by you, me or anyone else.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I would ban all diy electrical work , UNLESS you have rcd protection on all circuits. And the earth loop impedance is compliant, and is checked annually by the DNO.

There are about 26.5M households in the UK.

With your knowledge and experience you ought to be able to give us a reasonable guess of how many people would need to be employed to be able to test over 10,000 per day.

Please do so, and then put forward a sensible proposal on who would pay for that.