Dbl 13 amp socket

[JohnW2]

If we all took the view that we would not answer questions unless we were fairly confident that adequate testing would be undertaken, very few questions would get answered - by you, me or anyone else.

And we could not still guarantee that it would ...

Of course - we could never be certain of what an OP may do, or not do. However, if we were not even happy to answer questions when we were "fairly confident" that adequate testing would be undertaken (because that "fairly confident" could be misplaced), that would surely mean that we should not answer any questions at all, even when we did give advice (which might well be ignored) about testing, wouldn't it?

Kind Regards, John

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Of course - we could never be certain of what an OP may do, or not do. However, if we were not even happy to answer questions when we were "fairly confident" that adequate testing would be undertaken (because that "fairly confident" could be misplaced), that would surely mean that we should not answer any questions at all, even when we did give advice (which might well be ignored) about testing, wouldn't it?

For me(I cannot speak for others), it is a judgement that I make on each individual and the task they are undertaken. I can't honestly say my judgement is always correct though! I personally feel some times it is safer that the OP gets some advice that helps them one way or the other.
Even if the advice is not appreciated by the OP as a constructive one for them personally to complete their task or solve the issue they have.

If we decided that we cannot trust the OP to carry out the tasks they have been advised on, including those of proving safety. Which they have indicated they will, then it is time to sign-off!
The reason I originally signed up on this website, was to gain knowledge from other professionals and sage's. And also to help those that require help if I can. I come from a background and training where it has been instilled into me how important testing is, whether that be to prove safe, prove complaint and suitable for service. These are tests that as a responsible person I must undertake, the majority of the work that questions are asked about on this forum, are those that I as trained and qualified person come across in my working life all the time. When I carry out this work, I am expected to do some testing, which in conclusion results in the installation or part of it I have worked being left safe.
Even as DIYer I expect for very similar reason that the person undertaking this work, should be made aware that testing is an important part of electrical work. I except that not all will be prepared to do this, I expect not all have the ability, I except that not all have the equipment, I even regrettably except that some will mislead us and then there will be cases that unfortunately financial constraints on individuals will make it difficult to employ or hirer equipment, even if they know this would be the safest route.

I really cannot answer your question and don't really want to sound like a hypocrite. It is a judgement call to which topics, I feel comfortable with answering and even then I can only trust the OP on face value for them to be honest.
Even being honest does not always guarantee you a smooth ride, as we have seen recently. Where someone has quiet clearer implied that they have not undertaken safe procedures, which has resulted in accusations made upon their intelligence! Which is not good for the forum and disrespectful (but hey ho, we have all been there!)

 

[JohnW2]

For me(I cannot speak for others), it is a judgement that I make on each individual and the task they are undertaken. I can't honestly say my judgement is always correct though! I personally feel some times it is safer that the OP gets some advice that helps them one way or the other.

As I've said, I think many/most of us adopt that approach as best as we can - but, as I've said, in practice, that judgement is really limited to identifying those situations in which an OP is clearly 'out of their depth' (aka 'not competent') in relation to actually undertaking the work, in which case the only appropriate advice is that they should not attempt it.

In relation to testing, the reality is that, no matter what we may convince ourselves, we almost never have any useful information on which to base a judgement. On the contrary, I think we all know that, even if we advise someone about the 'required' tests, the probability of them undertaking them all is extremely small. I would struggle to think of an occasion (at least, in relation to 'minor works') on which, having been told what testing was required, an OP has said that they would go out and hire the equipment, learn how to use it and then undertake all the necessary tests (and, even if they did say that, we couldn't be certain that they were telling the truth).

Hence, if we simply assumed that (even with advice about testing) OPs would never undertake all the required tests, we would only occasionally be wrong, at least in relation to 'minor work'. If we were sticking to our principles, we would/should therefore conclude that the only sensible/safe approach would be to not give anyone any advice/instructions as to how to actually do the work.

However, none of us actually do that. Even you (as well as many others of us) will often give advice as to how something could/should be done, with a comment about the necessary testing merely added 'to the end of that advice' - even though we actually know that the probability of any testing being undertaken is very low.

I personally think that it probably works out about as well as it could, in our imperfect world. However, I don't think that any of us should fool ourselves (or, rather, our consciences) into believing that we are only giving advice (about how to do jobs) to those who are adequately competent and who are going to undertake 'adequate' testing. Speaking for myself, I fully accept that I sometimes give advice to people with very limited understanding (hence probably limited 'competence') and who almost certainly will not undertake any testing - but, in such situations, I give my advice on the pragmatic basis that I believe it better to give them what advice we can, rather than leaving them to muddle along with no advice at all. In other words, I feel to to give the advice is, in that situation, the 'lesser of the evils' in terms of the chances of the OP's safety. BAS, for one, strongly disagrees with that approach.

Kind Regards, John

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

I give my advice on the pragmatic basis that I believe it better to give them what advice we can, rather than leaving them to muddle along with no advice at all. In other words, I feel to to give the advice is, in that situation, the 'lesser of the evils' in terms of the chances of the OP's safety.

I think that is fair point to make and most of us will believe, some advise is better than none.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I think it depends on the job.

If a DIYer wants to know how to add a second light or alter switches, add a socket; or connect an oven, for example, then, as long as they do it carefully, using a new piece of cable, the work will not make much difference to the circuit parameters so, although testing should be done, what has been said may be acceptable given that they are not able to test.

However, if it is obvious that a DIYer doesn't have a clue but wishes to install a supply to a shed or garage then I don't think any advice should be given because I do not consider such to be a DIY job as it should not be done without testing and, indeed, knowledge.

 

[JohnW2]

I think it depends on the job. ... If a DIYer wants to know how to add a second light or alter switches, add a socket; or connect an oven, for example, then, as long as they do it carefully, using a new piece of cable, the work will not make much difference to the circuit parameters so, although testing should be done, what has been said may be acceptable given that they are not able to test.

Exactly.

However, if it is obvious that a DIYer doesn't have a clue but wishes to install a supply to a shed or garage then I don't think any advice should be given because I do not consider such to be a DIY job as it should not be done without testing and, indeed, knowledge.

Quite - and I think that most of us are agreed about that. Most of us believe that it is not really appropriate to give specific advice (about 'how to do it') when it is apparent that the OP is totally out of his depth - but that's a much broader concern than just the inability (or non-intent) to test.

The more (most?!) difficult situation (for us) is when someone is clearly "totally out of their depth" but, equally clearly, is hell-bent on doing the work whether or not they get advice (which might at least reduce the risk to them to some extent). Many of us might feel that we should simply 'walk away' from that sort of situation, but by so doing, we might be denying an OP bits of advice which might possibly 'save his/her life'. Not easy.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

I give my advice on the pragmatic basis that I believe it better to give them what advice we can, rather than leaving them to muddle along with no advice at all. In other words, I feel to to give the advice is, in that situation, the 'lesser of the evils' in terms of the chances of the OP's safety.

I think that is fair point to make and most of us will believe, some advise is better than none.

Yes, that's certainly my view - but I accept that some (like BAS) are strongly opposed to that approach.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I am also strongly desirous of a rational explanation of whose interests are served by pretending that the OP is not an idiot.