Dimmable LED lighting system?

[dhutch]

What options are available in terms of dimmable LED based lights and fittings.

Obviously one option is a conventional 240v lighting dimmer and the dimmable LED replacement bulbs, but they tend to dim really badly, and both bulb and dimmer hum like crazy.

I am expecting to rewire my next house, older prooerpr with 30yo wiring, no earth on the lighting circuit. So I have the opportunity for a clean slate. Or even matbe, repurposing the cables for an extra low voltage LED system?

Thoughts and options?

Daniel

 

[flameport]

conventional 240v lighting dimmer and the dimmable LED replacement bulbs, but they tend to dim really badly, and both bulb and dimmer hum like crazy.

Only when poor quality incompatible devices are used.
With decent dimmable LED lamps and quality dimmers designed for the purpose, they dim from nothing to full and make no noise at all.

30yo wiring, no earth on the lighting ring.

No earth on lighting means at least 50 years old, could easily be much older.
Any cable that old is overdue for replacement.

While there are various other methods of dimming LEDs, they are all going into the realm of overpriced and overcomplex dedicated lighting systems, all of which will cost a fortune to install and most of which will probably be obsolete within a couple of years. Unless you have money to burn, avoid them.

 

[winston1]

I am expecting to rewire my next house, older prooerpr with 30yo wiring, no earth on the lighting ring.

And no lighting ring either. Lighting has never been on rings.

 

[dhutch]

And no lighting ring either. Lighting has never been on rings.

Your ofcause right, post corrected.

 

[dhutch]

Only when poor quality incompatible devices are used.
With decent dimmable LED lamps and quality dimmers designed for the purpose, they dim from nothing to full and make no noise at all.

Interested in suggested brands and specs.

However in the current house I have an MK dimmer and Phillips led lamp, both very audible. The dimer gives out a solid 50hz always, worse when driving LED lamps than incandescent. The lamp has a 50hz him and also a higher pitch whistle. It certainly doesn't dim to nothing either.

No earth on lighting means at least 50 years old, could easily be much older.
Any cable that old is overdue for replacement.

Yes, just checked the electrical report and it does indeed say circa 50yo. But it is all PVC. We plan anfull rewire, but obviously the lack of CPC on the lighting circuits and removing a few spurs of spurs is slightly more time critical, hence looking at options.

While there are various other methods of dimming LEDs, they are all going into the realm of overpriced and overcomplex dedicated lighting systems, all of which will cost a fortune to install and most of which will probably be obsolete within a couple of years. Unless you have money to burn, avoid them.

Money to get it right, yes, to burn, no. Fair enough.

Just seems backwards to install a new system that's based on incandescent dimming technology. The dimmable lamps are also eye watering expensive as soon as you need 4x5 candle lamps.


Daniel

 

[ban-all-sheds]

While there are various other methods of dimming LEDs, they are all going into the realm of overpriced and overcomplex dedicated lighting systems, all of which will cost a fortune to install and most of which will probably be obsolete within a couple of years.

Is 1-10V or 0-10V really overpriced, overcomplex etc, and, after all these years, really on the verge of disappearing?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Lighting has never been on rings.

Untrue.

How often rings are needed is one thing, and I can't see why they would ever be in a domestic installation, but sometimes they are used if needed, and sometimes if not.

 

[bernardgreen]

LED lamps are best dimmed by controlling the current driven through the LED element in the lamp. This is best achieved by a smoothed DC current source feeding the LED element.

If only it were that simple in real life

All LED lamps have some form of driver as part of the lamp and this driver controls the current through the lamp. NOT to be confused with an "LED DRIVER" external to the lamp which converts mains to maybe 12 votls to supply a 12 volt LED lamp. That external "LED DRIVER" is a power supply and not a driver.

The driver in a dimmable LED lamp reacts to distortions in the mains supply. These distortion are produced for example by a dimmer switch. The LED driver in the lamps alters the current it is driving through the LED element according to the anoint of distortion. The distortions created by the dimmer switch must be compatible with the distortions the driver in the lamp expects to see. The two most common types of distortion are (1) leading edge and (2) trailing edge.

Most power suppiies are switch mode operating at high frequency. If the LED driver in the lamps is also a switch mode device then there can be interaction between the two switching frequencies which can result in one or both devices becoming unstable and this can kead to erratic, flickering light from the lamp.

Ban All Sheds refered to control of the LED driver(s) by a control voltage that is separate from the power supply to the LED driver. That is one of the best control systems for dimming LED lighting. But not so conventient to install.

 

[dhutch]

LED lamps are best dimmed by controlling the current driven through the LED element in the lamp. This is best achieved by a smoothed DC current source feeding the LED element.

If only it were that simple in real life

All LED lamps have some form of driver as part of the lamp and this driver controls the current through the lamp. NOT to be confused with an "LED driver" external to the lamp which converts mains to maybe 12 votls to supply a 12 volt LED lamp. That external "LED driver" is a power supply and not a driver.

The driver in a dimmable LED lamp reacts to distortions in the mains supply. These distortion are produced for example by a dimmer switch. The LED driver in the lamps alters the current it is driving through the LED element according to the anoint of distortion. The distortions created by the dimmer switch must be compatible with the distortions the driver in the lamp expects to see. The two most common types of distortion are (1) leading edge and (2) trailing edge.

Yes, all the makes perfect sense and is as I would expect, although I hadn't realised some dimmers are trailing edge and some leading edge. In that case I would expect the 'aftermarket' 240vac dimmable LED lamps to be able to takenpowrr and directions from either?

 

[dhutch]

Is 1-10V or 0-10V really overpriced, overcomplex etc, and, after all these years, really on the verge of disappearing?

This is the sort of thing I need to know, where to look for these systems, how long they have been about, etc. Obviously I can talk with our electrian who appears excellent but no harm done in some background research.

Ban All Sheds refered to control of the LED driver(s) by a control voltage that is separate from the power supply to the LED driver. That is one of the best control systems for dimming LED lighting. But not so conventient to install.

Right. So the lamps have both a 240vac supply, and a 0-10v signal? If the floors are coming up anyway we can surely do that with ease. And even throw in cabling sufficient to allow you to convert to a ''conventional" system in the future if so desired.

Any noise or hum, and certainly any detectable flickering, must be avoided at (almost) all cost. I am more sensitive to both than most and this is my space to relax, be it the living room, kitchen, bedrooms.

Obviously not all rooms with need dimmers.

Daniel

 

[ericmark]

When an LED is dimmed the colour remains the same, so there is no ambiance like with tungsten, also to dim an LED means it is usually poorer quality driver circuits used, so dimable LED's do not have as many lumen per watt and the non dimable type in general, although I am sure there are exceptions.

In other countries where they have used energy saving lamps for years, Turkey for example, they split the lights in the room 1/3 and 2/3 over two simple switches giving three levels of light. The other option is to use inefficient colour changing LED lighting to get the ambiance required. Nothing wrong with lights to make the room feel warm, but be aware often down at low as 30 lumen per watt, where a good quality LED is around 100 lumen per watt, so again have two switches, one for standard lighting and one for ambiance lighting.

You may want to consider wall up lights for ambiance, it will reflect colour of wall and ceiling so depending on colour scheme used it can give ambiance, or or course the colour of shades used on lamps, but main point is more than one circuit for lights.

1966 the rules changed on earths to lights, so your house wired before then.

 

[bernardgreen]

Whether you like it or not there are now such things as constant voltage LED drivers

How is the current regulated ?

There are LED elements that have a semiconductor resistor built into the element. These can connected in parallel and then supplied from a voltage source such as a 3 volt battery or other source. They are used in Christmas decorations and similar items. They can be driven from a source that is a controlled voltage source.

 

[^woody^]

Normal wiring and then use smart lighting such as Philipps Hue. No hums, buzzing or flickering.

 

[jamesmcbride]

I'm using aurora enlite dimmable LED GU10 lamps with fibaro dimmers and having no problems at all - they dim perfectly from 100% to 1% - no hum, no flicker.

I've also got some cheapish (from amazon) dimmable LED E14 filament lamps with fibaro dimmers, which work reasonably well, although they do start to flicker a bit when they get below about 10%.

 

[dhutch]

When an LED is dimmed the colour remains the same, so there is no ambiance like with tungsten, also to dim an LED means it is usually poorer quality driver circuits used, so dimable LED's do not have as many lumen per watt and the non dimable type in general, although I am sure there are exceptions.

In other countries where they have used energy saving lamps for years, Turkey for example, they split the lights in the room 1/3 and 2/3 over two simple switches giving three levels of light. The other option is to use inefficient colour changing LED lighting to get the ambiance required. Nothing wrong with lights to make the room feel warm, but be aware often down at low as 30 lumen per watt, where a good quality LED is around 100 lumen per watt, so again have two switches, one for standard lighting and one for ambiance lighting.

You may want to consider wall up lights for ambiance, it will reflect colour of wall and ceiling so depending on colour scheme used it can give ambiance, or or course the colour of shades used on lamps, but main point is more than one circuit for lights.

1966 the rules changed on earths to lights, so your house wired before then.

Fair point about the colour not changing, I had subconsciously been aware even good dimmable LEDs don't do quite the same thing, but I hadn't thought consciously about why.

Very happy and used to having more than one circuit, and as you say main lights (large warm white led) and wall light and or even filiment lights (smaller even warmer evebiev lights) is a good call above even a steighst 1/3 2/3 split it's actually what my parents have in their cosy room. Else wall switched floor/table lamps even.

Fair. Good to have the date, the CU is about 30yo with RCD which is what I had recalled, but yes. Not new, if also not VIR atleast.

Daniel