Diversity Factor

Just now big a floor area do think you will be heating?

Quick calc 36A = circa 8KW (depends on input volts)

With 200W per sq.m. mat that is near enough 40 sq.m floor area - that's a pretty big property. And with EUFH you cannot it put under fixed or Large furniture. I

Me thinks you need advice from someone in the building who knows the subject.
 
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The installation is as 100A installation in cable sizes, circuits, safety, etc. no cable will overheat. A 100A fuse could be fitted not compromising any safety whatsoever. But the problem is, in the three phase MEM fuse cupboard it states "63A only". The only problem is that a 63A fuse is there with a sticker saying only use a 63A. The responses here are generally, treat the installation as any other, there is not a problem. The diversity calcs say 63A is too small while 100A is fine.
Yes, we understand that. As we (including yourself) have all said, the simplest way of addressing nearly all of your concerns would be (IF the supply is adequate to provide 100A) to replace the fuse with a 100A one. If the "63A only" labelling concerns you, the alternative, as suggested by Andy, would be (again, IF the supply is adequate to provide 100A) to run an additional feed, with an additional separate 63A (or maybe even 40A) switch-fuse for, say, the UFH.

However, as I've said, that all assumes that the supply is adequate to provide 100A. I presume that the "Three phase MEM fuse cupboard" is downstream of the DNO fuses, and I wonder what rating those fuses are (and whether anything other than 'your' flat is supplied by the phase concerned)?

If it were possible to move to a 100A fuse (or equivalent with two fuses), then all you would really gain would be a degree of reduced heating of the fuse during periods of high demand. The actual demand (hence currents in any cables) would not have changed and, as you've said, the cables are already more than adequately protected.

My work around is to have all the rooms with UFH on timers and stats (which is the norm anyhow), with UFH coming in, in staggered times. Then a E7 tariff, so the place is heated up cheaper when other appliances are off during the night, except the odd kick in of the fridge. Also have combined appliances like a washer/dryer.
As John/flameport has pointed out in the video, official guidance on diversity/'maximum demand' calculations (both in BS7671 and the OSG) is next-to-useless, leaving us reliant on common sense (which people possess in varying degrees).

Some people would undoubtedly argue that one can/should not use time switches etc. to overcome what would otherwise be 'maximum demand' problems with the design of an installation, on the basis that someone could easily change the settings of those time switches and therefore invoke the 'maximum demand problem'.

However, if one does not take that view, then time-switching of large loads provides an excellent way of achieving considerable reduction of estimated 'maximum demand' on the basis of 'time diversity'. In other words, if the time switching were such that, say, the UFH was never powered at the same time as other large loads (cookers, washers, dryers etc.), then (provided no-one interfered with the time settings) that would result in a dramatic reduction in the common-sense after-diversity 'maximum demand'.

Indeed, if one had a heating load of, say, 35A and other large potential loads totalling another 35A, then, if time-switching 'guaranteed' that the two were never on together, then the estimated 'maximum demand' would be 35A, not 70A. However, as above, views about the acceptability of that approach to design would depend yupon the extent to which is was felt one could rely on their being no 'interference' with the time switching.
 
Me thinks you need advice from someone in the building who knows the subject.
That would be me.
With 200W per sq.m. mat that is near enough 40 sq.m floor area - that's a pretty big property. And with EUFH you cannot it put under fixed or Large furniture. I
Property is over 40 squ metres. No UFH under large furniture, beds. Been there, done it.
 
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The B type mcb's are capable of exceeding 3 to 5 times the rated current. In short a 6A mcb can pass 18A, which is above a 3kW electric kettle by a comfortable margin, and no trip.

On the basis of this statement, get an electrician.
 
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The 63A fuse is to protect the cable between the mains incommer and your flat.
It could be a 16mm cable.
 
The 63A fuse is to protect the cable between the mains incommer and your flat. ... It could be a 16mm cable.
We've been told that it is 25mm², so a 100A fuse would probably be OK to protect that cable- but, as I've said, we don't know that the supply is capable of providing 100A to the flat and, in any event, changing the fuse from 63A to 100A would obviously not make an iota of difference to the demand. As I said, the only 'benefit' I can think of is that the fuse wouldn't get quite so hot at times of high demand!

Kind Regards, John
 
Thermal overload is approx. twice the rated current of an mcb. This is all by the way of the prime point.
What exactly is all that meant to mean?

A Type B MCB must not ever trip at currents below 1.13 times its 'rating', must trip (thermally) within an hour at 1.45 times it's 'rating' and must trip (very rapidly, magnetically) at a maximum of 5 times its rating (range 3-5 times).

Hence, a 6A Type B must not trip at currents less than 6.78A, must trip (thermally) within an hour with a current of 8.7A and must trip ('immediately, magnetically, in less than 5 secs) at a current of 30A. Corresponding figures for a 32A Type B MCB would be 36.16A, 46.4A and 160A respectively.
 
We've been told that it is 25mm², so a 100A fuse would probably be OK to protect that cable- but, as I've said, we don't know that the supply is capable of providing 100A to the flat and, in any event, changing the fuse from 63A to 100A would obviously not make an iota of difference to the demand. As I said, the only 'benefit' I can think of is that the fuse wouldn't get quite so hot at times of high demand!

Kind Regards, John
Three phases into a fuse cabinet. Three bus bars. Directly bolted to bus bars the 63A fuse holders. Then 25mm cable to the flat. The makers of the cabinet have stipulated 63A as they calculate the total load of the building/cabinet. However one 100A fuse replacing a 100A fuse in one flat would make no difference whatsoever, as flats have different max loads. If all had 100A fuses it would.

Changing the fuse is not an option.
 
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It does make one wonder why, from a 63A (60A?) fuse, they would have run 25mm² "cable" to the flat (although I realise some electricians would because that's what they do); 10mm² is more usual for flats.
 
Three phases into a fuse cabinet. Three bus bars. Directly bolted to bus bars the 62A fuse holders.

so there are only three flats in the building?

and only three 62A fuses?

Post some pics please.
 
Three phases into a fuse cabinet. Three bus bars. Directly bolted to bus bars the 62A fuse holders. Then 25mm cable to the flat.
Yes, but as I've asked ... (a) what is upstream of that fuse cabinet (i.e. what is the rating of the DNO fuse for each phase? ... and (b) is there just one fuse (presumably 63A, not 62A), for your flat, bolted to the busbar for the phase of interest - or does that busbar also supply any other flats?
 
Should that not be ≤0.4 seconds?
You tell me :)

The curves are 'vertical' from the shortest times (0.1s for the BS7671 Appendix 4 ones) up to about 11secs, and the tabulations of 5 x In on each of the curves in BS7671 relate to "for 0.1 to 5 seconds".

So, as I said, you tell me - certainly less than 11 secs, presumably less than 5 seconds and probably less than 0.1 secs (and the curves from other sources go down, still vertically, to 0.01 secs or lower). The ≤0.4 secs you refer to relates to the disconnection time requirements specified in BS7671, not the OPD characteristics depicted in Appendix 4.

However, this is all a bit academic - I think we can probably all agree that magnetic tripping is 'very quick' :) .

Kind Regards, John
 

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