DIY is not an electrician. No sir, not at all...

[EFLImpudence]

but could lead to you killing your family if, as you later state, you don't really KNOW what you are doing.

At a theoretical level I accept it .Later is too late but as Asterix said " alea jacta est "

Q.E.D.

Then you cannot be sure that the protective devices will work when a fault occurs

Do you repeat the full sequence of checks carried out by Schneider/Legrand when you install their devices ?

Maybe not but you're not doing any.

Please elaborate upon your "very relevant " vis checks. I would like to know how when French authorities do not see them as necessary and particularly relevant to previously quoted deaths and injuries.

The tests ensure that the cpds work. It is useless fitting devices like this if you cannot be sure the circuits will not prevent their operation.
Akin to testing vehicle brakes at MoT - they may be brand new but useless if they do not work.

One of the few statistics may be your children.

Rather pathetic EFLI. Ever thought of becoming an MP or a Daily Mail journslist ?

No.

Au contraire. It is a work creation scheme for bureaucracy

Really ? And no extra work for electricians

I don't think so, probably difficult to tell in the economic situation

That just shows how little you KNOW. You don't know what you don't know

damn, I didn't expect to encounter Donald Rumsfeld on this forum !

Nobody expects to encounter Donald Rumsfeld on this forum !

EFLI You may feel that your epithets are really super, but I was looking for real answers and points rather than some... ah, fifth-form jokes.

They were real and not at all humourous.

Or to ensure it doesn't leak

.OK , so why not 10 or 20 bar to be really sure . Same logic, why not have min 2 mm insulation around all conductors ?

Someone must have deemed the levels satisfactory.

I don't know. Perhaps they think it better or could just be tradition.

Well EfLI , could it possibly be an out-dated tradition that they use to minimise competition ? If you reply to this mail, then a reply to this point would be preciated .

I said I don't know...

I presume you have to abide by french laws when in France. It's probably good that you

There are no laws on soldering pipes AFAIK. Only legislation is about lead etc .

Ok.

 

[JohnW2]

The tests ensure that the cpds work. It is useless fitting devices like this if you cannot be sure the circuits will not prevent their operation.

Whilst I agree almost totally with everything you're saying, in terms of MCBs, that should probably read "The tests ensure that the pds may work" (i.e. that the wiring of the circuit is compatible with correct operation of the device) - since we don't (can't sensibly) test the operation of OPDs.

Akin to testing vehicle brakes at MoT - they may be brand new but useless if they do not work.

Not totally 'akin'. It's directly akin to fitting new brakes, then inspecting all the pipes/hoses/connections/joints of the braking system but not actually testing to see of the brakes do what they should do. However, I agree that, in the case of MCBs, testing the wiring is the best one can do.

As I've said before, I rather suspect that the common perception that RCDs are specifically unreliable results from the fact that we don't/can't test MCBs (and certainly can't test fuses ), so don't really have any idea how 'unreliable' they might also be.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[mointainwalker]

@EFLi

Maybe not but you're not doing any

Correct. Would you like to extrapolate from any verifiable statistics how many more times per 100, 000 this is likely to kill/injure me/mine and say how economically reasonable this would be?

The tests ensure that the cpds work. It is useless fitting devices like this if you cannot be sure the circuits will not prevent their operation.
Akin to testing vehicle brakes at MoT - they may be brand new but useless if they do not w

ork.

This is true but it is pointless to insist on 1000% efficiency. European companies like Schneider and Legrand manufacture and test products to unimaginable levels of efficiency with procedures that are way beyond what an electrician can conceive and you think you can out-test them

Someone must have deemed the levels satisfactory

No. Just because such and such is recommended does not necessarily mean that anyone anywhere except maybe an advertising panel considered it. You need to be more sceptical and questioning.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Maybe not but you're not doing any

Correct. Would you like to extrapolate from any verifiable statistics how many more times per 100, 000 this is likely to kill/injure me/mine and say how economically reasonable this would be?

Not without extensive investigation but that is not the point.

The tests ensure that the cpds work. It is useless fitting devices like this if you cannot be sure the circuits will not prevent their operation.
Akin to testing vehicle brakes at MoT - they may be brand new but useless if they do not w

ork.

I don't know what that means.

This is true but it is pointless to insist on 1000% efficiency. European companies l;ike Schneider and Legrand manufacture and test products to unimaginable levels of efficiency beyond what an electrician can conceive and you think you can out-test them

Now you're being silly. I cannot test to determine whether devices are ten times better than perfect.

Someone must have deemed the levels satisfactory

No. Just because such and such is recommended does not necessarily mean that anyone anywhere except maybe an advertising panel considered it. You need to be more sceptical.

If they are only recommendations then why are you complaining.

I think you are confusing what is now law in the UK and France with good electrical practice.
Because such testing (one of which involves "Z's" as you put it) now has to be recorded on an electrical certificate and schedule of inspections does not mean they were not carried out before to ensure safety and efficient operation.

I don't KNOW but I would assume that French electricians carry out the necessary testing to ensure, apart from safety and efficient operation, that they have completed the job correctly and that they are not charged with the manslaughter that you mentioned.

Edit - Of course I should have said England & Wales, not UK.

 

[mointainwalker]

To put it simply EFLI. I am asking how many of the professional test required in the UK are truly necessary when you look at the number of injuries/deaths that happen.

I have juxtaposed the French system ( a comparable society ? ) where none of this is required but where I have no statistics but equally do not read about "x" dead per week through electrocution/electrical fire.

Overlaying this is my questioning about how much of the "new" legislation is due to lobbying by electrical bodies perhaps interested more in financial gain rather than electrical safety.

 

[EFLImpudence]

To put it simply EFLI. I am asking how many of the professional test required in the UK are truly necessary when you look at the number of injuries/deaths that happen.

There are very few deaths but each of the tests is necessary in its own right with regard to that part of the installation to prove that it has been done correctly and is safe.

Why would you not want to know that?.


Leaving aside a responsibility to a customer (or family) it is reassuring to know this for oneself - not just because it is required by law.

I have juxtaposed the French system ( a comparable society ? ) where none of this is required but where I have no statistics but equally do not read about "x" dead per week through electrocution/electrical fire.

Perhaps it is done for the electricians' peace of mind rather than law. I don't know - do they just 'whack it in' and as long as the screws are tight, all's well?

Overlaying this is my questioning about how much of the "new" legislation is due to lobbying by electrical bodies perhaps interested more in financial gain rather than electrical safety.

There are many threads dealing with this subject - one this very day.

Are you refusing to do any testing because you think electricians have taken advantage in another country?

You can still do it yourself here.

 

[Paul_C]

Perhaps I need a trip to Specsavers, since I cannot see where Paul is suaying that the law doesn't exist. As we both know, he is very well conversant with the existance of the law, and it's content - even if he disapproves of the law, and 'doesn't see any reason why he should comply with it'.

Precisely - Thank you John.

As I have already pointed out, that comment was in response to skotl's somewhat tongue-in-cheek list, so needs to be taken in that context. And as I also pointed out earlier, my use of "not notifiable" in that comment was not meant to suggest that there is no statutory requirement to notify, only that I, personally, am not going to notify any of it.

 

[mointainwalker]

T

here are very few deaths but each of the tests is necessary in its own right

As you state it, I do not accept that. I would wish to see a per 100,000 death rate to make a reasoned judgement on their value.

Are you refusing to do any testing because you think electricians have taken advantage in another country?

No.

Firstly I do not knowwhat they are, how to do them and therefore I obviously do not know what benefits they bring.


Since the French regs NFC15- 100 do not mention any kind of testing, I proceeded in the belief that adhering to wire sizes, circuit limitations was good practice and completely acceptable.

If it is possible is a few sentences, can you outline what the 'usual" UK test requirements are and what benefits they bring ?

I honestly know nothing about these so this is a sincere request.

 

[Paul_C]

Another point to ponder, especially considering the zeal with which forum newcomers are often told about the legal requirement to notify work: Remember that there is one particular group of homeowners within England & Wales who are still free to do whatever wiring they like in their homes without any legal requirement to notify.

 

[EFLImpudence]

If it is possible is a few sentences, can you outline what the 'usual" UK test requirements are and what benefits they bring ?

Not a few sentences but they take longer to explain than to do.

I honestly know nothing about these so this is a sincere request.

Have a look here if, as I hope, you are really interested.

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/8.1.1.htm

I should point out that it is quite old but will give you an idea.