DIY is not an electrician. No sir, not at all...

[skotl]

I've been a member of DIYNOT for a few years and, more often than not, have been nothing more than a lurker.

One point that I have always found fascinating is that the "Electrics UK" part of the forum tends to have the most new postings, and more responses than any other forum.
From my lurking, I've also been able to spot that "Electrics UK" has way more than average "frequent flyers" and, if I may say, these frequent flyers are a lot more vociferous than in other forums.

But... for good reason. This part of the forum, more than anything else on diynot, has much more potential for mayhem, distruction and bodily harm (excepting the discussion on whether an errant amateur should venture forth with a chainsaw, while wearing Levis).

My point is this; I started on an electrical engineering degree and quickly switched to electronics and computing. I've spent 25 years thinking that I understand E=IR, etc, and that I am perfectly capable of swapping out a double gang socket, but these forums have shown me that, actually, I don't know any of this stuff.
This is way more complex than people think.

So, a couple of points; 1) when people shout at you (us) about being able to test, then we need to ackowledge that there is more to this than meets the eye.
And, for 2) I have seen people that have been horrfiied at the eviscoration they have received by, amongst others, the prodigious protagonist, ban-all-sheds.
Often, I seek out his responses purely for the entertainment factor.
However, more often than not, he's right. He's addressing the person that I used to be, before I started reading this forum; the under-educated, over-confident, E=IR person that thought electricity was easy.

I guess I am the antithesis of this forum; rather than being educated on how to perform tasks, I have been educated to realise that I should not be undertaking these tasks at all.

Which has to be a good thing.
Thanks to all previous posters,
Scott

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I haven't made multiple accounts - whoever skotl is he's absolutely nothing to do with me.

 

[c128]

From my lurking, I've also been able to spot that "Electrics UK" has way more than average "frequent flyers" and, if I may say, these frequent flyers are a lot more vociferous than in other forums.

But... for good reason. This part of the forum, more than anything else on diynot, has much more potential for mayhem, distruction and bodily harm (excepting the discussion on whether an errant amateur should venture forth with a chainsaw, while wearing Levis).

To be honest I think similar arguments could be made for many areas that require some level of expertise. There's plenty of potential for mayhem, destruction and bodily harm in most aspects of everyday life, how that potential stacks up in reality is what really matters though.

The thing I've always found "interesting" (i.e. a bit unpleasant) about this forum is the extent that the perceived danger of the subject matter is almost used by some as justification for the rudeness and general hostility that seems to crop up here versus other forums, often completely unnecessarily. Argumentative occasional posters aside (as you find, sadly, on all forums) I think this forum's effectiveness and usefulness is actually limited by the general hostility of some of the "frequent flyers" you mention.

Just my view of course - I often read here, seldom post, so it's not really a "home" I care much about. However, I read/participate in quite a few forums where I have an interest and, in comparison, this is by far one of the most hostile, and that doesn't benefit its usefulness in my view.

 

[skotl]

I haven't made multiple accounts - whoever skotl is he's absolutely nothing to do with me.

I most definitely am not

 

[JohnW2]

I started on an electrical engineering degree and quickly switched to electronics and computing. I've spent 25 years thinking that I understand E=IR, etc, and that I am perfectly capable of swapping out a double gang socket, but these forums have shown me that, actually, I don't know any of this stuff. This is way more complex than people think.

All very true, but you have clearly made a choice. With your background, you have more than enough background knowledge and intellectual capacity to learn everything you would need to know about matters electrical (concepts, practices and regulations) - and you could easily end up at least as knowledgable and 'competent' as many a 'qualified' electrician.

....the eviscoration they have received by, amongst others, the prodigious protagonist, ban-all-sheds. Often, I seek out his responses purely for the entertainment factor. However, more often than not, he's right. He's addressing the person that I used to be, before I started reading this forum; the under-educated, over-confident, E=IR person that thought electricity was easy.

Again essentially true, even though none of that justifies the tone, and sometimes language, whith BAS often adopts. However, as I said, you have made a choice. As BAS is always saying when challenged about this, he does not simply tell people not to undertake DIY electrics - rather, he tells them not to do it unless/until they have acquired enough knowledge and understanding to be able to undertake the work competently. You have clearly chosen not to do that.

I guess I am the antithesis of this forum; rather than being educated on how to perform tasks, I have been educated to realise that I should not be undertaking these tasks at all.

You may represent the antithesis of what the creators of this forum intended, but probably not of view of the likes of BAS. He must realise that an almost insignificant minority of people will ever respond to his posts by going away and 'acquiring knowledge and understanding' to the extent/level which is is advising them - so, when he tells them that they should not be undertaking electrical work until they have done that, he is effectively telling almost of all them not to do it. Indeed, the vast majority of questions posed in this forum are sufficiently 'basic' that they become self-fulfilling in terms of his viewpoint - i.e. if they need to ask such questions, they almost certainly shouldn't be undertaking the work.

As I've often pointed out to him, this surely leads to a big question mark over whether this forum, and many other like it, should exist (it could simply be replaced by a simple statement, such as the DIYnot one about gas work/plumbing, telling people not to do it and banning questions about it) - and certainly to why people with his views should participate in them. It must be very boring for him to write essentially the same thing so often, and maybe that explains why he sometimes appears to get a bit niggled. From your lurking, you may be aware that I take the more pragmatic view (that BAS rejects) that those who ask questions here (who at least have the sense to realise that they need to ask questions) are very likely to proceed with their work whether given advice or not - such that answering their questions may often be the lesser of evils. BAS is concered about the responsibility/liability he might acquire by so doing - but, again, it's obviously for him to decide what he's comfortable to do and, indeed, whether he participates in the forum at all.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[Stoday]

I haven't made multiple accounts - whoever skotl is he's absolutely nothing to do with me.

I most definitely am not

Everyone knows that; it was a joke.

Well, everyone but two.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Or - 'Mandy Rice-Davies'.

 

[NewOrder]

There is a balance. For example I am perfectly capable of say replacing flex on a lamp if I need to extend it, I know how to work out the correct fuse and flex size etc.

However I have an electronics background too, and like you before this site I thought nothing of doing some minor electrical work and then carrying out very basic tests.

However since reading the stuff on the forum I've come to realise there is just too many factors which the DIYer cannot really account for. While I am sure I can learn most of it, as I don't want to be a spark there is really no point. However I always learn more and more and do sometimes read up on things just out of interest rather than to gain any practical knowledge. A little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing.

While I will continue to do basic things like change a socket or a switch I wouldn't even rewire a ceiling rose now, too many people get it wrong with bad results.

It is exactly the same as my job, I am a computer engineer and I see DIYers doing things which can cause all sorts of problems, although the difference is in most cases boding a computer repair won't result in a loss of life, at worst just loss of identity.

I have huge respect for sparks because it requires both intellectual and manual knowledge. I am not so good at the manual side of things.

What I have learnt from this site is I now know when to call a spark and when I can do something myself. Generally if I have to alter the wiring in any way it is time to get a spark, but I see no problem with the DIYer doing basic things like changing a socket providing they know how to do the basic tests.

If you can't use a multimeter then you really shouldn't be doing any electrical work, I am shocked at how many people on this site do something I consider fairly complex and perhaps beyond the scope of DIY, it doesn't work and when asked to do basic continuity tests they have no idea what it even means!.

Perhaps far worse than DIY is dodgy builders doing wiring they shouldn't, I've seen some awful results of this, including a friend being electrocuted by a washing machine. Turned out when the builder wired in the sockets in an extension the earth wasn't wired in correctly. A spark would have been able to do test this, and the faulty washing machine would not have caused the severe shock it did. Thankfully she was fine after spending a few hours in A&E to be on the safe side.

 

[JohnW2]

There is a balance. .... However since reading the stuff on the forum I've come to realise there is just too many factors which the DIYer cannot really account for. While I am sure I can learn most of it, as I don't want to be a spark there is really no point .... A little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing.

Exactly. One has to recognise one's limitation and make a choice - it should not really be primarily a choice as to whether to do certain work, but a choice as to whether to gain enough knowledge and understanding to equip one to undertake the work competently and safely. As you say of yourself, for many/most people it just isn't worth gaining the degree of knowledge/ understanding to enable them to do anything but the most simple of electrical work (and some people would argue about even that!).

One thing which confuses the issue a little is that there are a few non-electricians in this forum (including myself, I guess) who have chosen, for whatever reason, to go down that route of acquiring knowledge/ understanding - but I'm sure we are pretty (probably very) unusual and should not be used as a yardstick by which to judge 'DIYers' in general.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ericmark]

It has been said for as long as I can remember "Fools rush in where angles fear to tread" and far be it from calling the DIY man a fool but to attempt to explain why he has not got the ability to do the work seems to fall on stony ground.

However for some one to place himself in danger is one thing but you also have the guys who will tell others to copy them one not so long ago seemed to think if there were no earths in the house it was OK not to connect them and also posted it for others to copy. It was not what he did (there may be things we don't know like being an IT system) but the fact he posted so others would copy.

We have all I am sure at some time broken the rules. But we should not tell others to do the same. I may from time to time exceed the 30 speed limit. But not when I am showing some one the way so if I break the limit he is also forced to do the same.

I will admit it is tempting where one knows a cure as for example with ovens tripping the RCD to tell others how to do it. But we have to learn to hold back and not give out dangerous information. The same applies to jokes.

The problem is so many posts start with "Can I" but when the answer is no then it becomes "Why not" and it does not matter how much one tries to explain you still get "But I need to so I'm doing it my way any way" which normally generates the **** from BAS. Which of course does no good all they wanted was a pat on the back and some one to say "Yes no problem mate" any other answer will be ignored.

 

[NewOrder]

I really do think certain members do need to remember this a DIY forum. I am a member of a computer technicians forums, and it is for techs only, so we can be a little rude to DIYers.

Perhaps members like BAS would be better on a none DIY forum?

 

[skotl]

Thanks, Joydivision, Ericmark and John for the considered responses.

John. in particular; your insight pretty much reflects what I thought, and I appreciate your kind words. I think that Eric pretty well sums up where I currently believe my level of expertise to be; I would be quite comfortable to complete the kinds of tasks that you outline, but probably not much more.

I would certainly be interested in BAS's thoughts on the topic. I really don't feel that I've been beaten into submission on this, more that the wise advice given by many, sometimes in a friendly and helpful manner, and sometimes less so, have made me realise that I would have to learn a lot before I could be considered half-way competent.

I'm genuinely intrigued by the argument that suggests (and I'm paraphrasing) that "well, if he mucks it up, it's only him who will be hurt". I take the point (actually stressed by BAS) that actual electrical fires are rarer than hens' teeth, but I also feel the burden that someone (perhaps the next owner of my house) may be impacted by any work that I do.
John kindly points out that I probably have the capacity to learn this, and I do intend to get my teeth stuck into it, in order to learn more. Partly because I enjoy learning new topics, but mainly so that I will continue to know which work I can safely do, and which I need to leave to better experienced folks.

Looking back through this thread, it could read as "the shouters are right - leave electrical work to the professionals" - it's not meant to read as that.
It was originally intended to say thanks to all the input and advice, even the hysterical parts, which reinforces that one really needs to think about what you expect to do, and how you intend to go about it.

Regards
Scott

 

[JohnW2]

Perhaps members like BAS would be better on a none DIY forum?

Well, the irony is that, like me, he isn't (unless he's hiding it well) an electrician - he's just a self-appointed protector of electrical DIYers against themselves!!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Be fair - not just that - I'm also a fearless crusader against incompetent so-called-professionals.

 

[JohnW2]

Be fair - not just that - I'm also a fearless crusader against incompetent so-called-professionals.

You are, indeed - and, as you know, I'm totally with you on that one.

Kind Regards, John.