DIY is not an electrician. No sir, not at all...

[ebee]

BAS don`t take prisoners and he don`t take fools gladly either.
Some might say he is a bit (or a lot) abrasive in his answers.
He does not always give easy answers and oft gets right up peoples noses.
He enjoys a good joust.

Perhaps he cares (and very passionately) that no one gets hurt by their actions and the actions of others. His logic and his answers are largely flawless and should be considered by all, including those who object to his tone of delivery.

I suspect he`s saved a few from grief at least and made a few others think more deeply.

 

[mointainwalker]

"Fools rush in where angles fear to tread "

Angles !!!! Bunch of pussies, of course they fear to tread. You want some hard men, then you want the Goths or even better the Visigoths !

Apologies for the diversion .

 

[EFLImpudence]

angles fear to tread "

A very acute observation. I'm glad your reflex wasn't too obtuse.

 

[JohnW2]

BAS don`t take prisoners and he don`t take fools gladly either..... Perhaps he cares (and very passionately) that no one gets hurt by their actions and the actions of others. His logic and his answers are largely flawless and should be considered by all, including those who object to his tone of delivery. I suspect he`s saved a few from grief at least and made a few others think more deeply.

I've never doubted that he is well-intentioned, but his tone and language are not only sometimes inexcusable, but I'm sure are also sometimes counterproductive.

As you say, what he writes, in his efforts to avoid people suffering harm, is invariably true in a literal sense, which makes it difficult for anyone to argue with him. However, one perhaps needs to retain some perspective, since someone determined to save others from harm could equally well (and, again, without risk of being wrong, at least qualitatively) tell people never to smoke, never to drink alcohol, never to eat animal fat or spicy foods, never to use ladders, garden tools or any other types of tools, never to drive cars, cross roads or travel by public transport etc. etc. etc. - many of which things result in a lot more injury, illness or death than does anything to do with electricity.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[stillp]

As you say, what he writes, in his efforts to avoid people suffering harm, is invariably true in a literal sense, which makes it difficult for anyone to argue with him. However, one perhaps needs to retain some perspective, since someone determined to save others from harm could equally well (and, again, without risk of being wrong, at least qualitatively) tell people never to smoke, never to drink alcohol, never to eat animal fat or spicy foods, never to use ladders, garden tools or any other types of tools, never to drive cars, cross roads or travel by public transport etc. etc. etc. - many of which things result in a lot more injury, illness or death than does anything to do with electricity.

John, I suspect BAS would be equally willing to give advice on any of those subjects, if asked, but this is an electrical forum so those subjects are "out of scope".
I also suspect that, if asked to give advice on any of those subjects, that his advice would be similarly accurate, even if not what many readers want to hear. It would probably also be expressed equally bluntly.

 

[JohnW2]

[John, I suspect BAS would be equally willing to give advice on any of those subjects, if asked, but this is an electrical forum so those subjects are "out of scope". I also suspect that, if asked to give advice on any of those subjects, that his advice would be similarly accurate, even if not what many readers want to hear. It would probably also be expressed equally bluntly.

I suspect you're right - but the issue of 'perspective' then again arises. Indeed, it's good (for BAS's cause) that he doesn't pronounce on such issues here because, if he were seen to be equally passionately telling people not to use ladders or garden tools, not to drive cars or cross roads etc. etc., then I doubt whether anyone would even consider taking seriously what he writes about electrical work!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

if he were seen to be equally passionately telling people not to use ladders or garden tools, not to drive cars or cross roads etc. etc.,

Why would I tell people not to do those things - they are all perfectly OK to do, as long as they are done competently.

then I doubt whether anyone would even consider taking seriously what he writes about electrical work!

Why should anyone take anything you're saying here seriously given that you are ignoring the issue of competence?

 

[JohnW2]

if he were seen to be equally passionately telling people not to use ladders or garden tools, not to drive cars or cross roads etc. etc.,

Why would I tell people not to do those things - they are all perfectly OK to do, as long as they are done competently.

Exactly, but you've only got to spend a while in an A&E department to discover how incompetent very many people are at doing those things - just as with electrical work - so the argument for telling them not to do those things unless/until they become competent seems still to apply. If you could do that (and people took notice of you), you'd spare people far more injuries and deaths tahn arise out of electrical work.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[Taylortwocities]

I was just looking up "Competent Person" in BS7671 (2008) definitions.

This is the first edition where the BSi chaps have managed to decide what competent means. They ducked the issue previously.

 

[stillp]

you've only got to spend a while in an A&E department to discover how incompetent very many people are at doing those things - just as with electrical work - so the argument for telling them not to do those things unless/until they become competent seems still to apply. If you could do that (and people took notice of you), you'd spare people far more injuries and deaths tahn arise out of electrical work.

But people aren't asking about those things John, they're asking about electrical work.
If 'they' were to ask about crossing the road, driving a car, etc in a way that left no doubt that they weren't competent to do so, then they'd probably receive the same sort of response as the "I'm an IT technician so I can change my consumer unit" people.

 

[NewOrder]

I am an IT technician and I know I can't change my consumer unit

Back to the point yes many people on here including myself have no formal qualifications in wiring at all and only we know what we are capable of. The problem is how do we know?

There is also levels of competence, I am perfectly capable of replacing a light switch and I check the rules and regs so I know it will need a grommet and sleeving on the earth etc. However ask my to explain the rules and regs of changing a consumer unit and I wouldn't have a clue.

That should be a test of DIYing. If you don't know the rules you shouldn't do it.

 

[stillp]

I am an IT technician and I know I can't change my consumer unit

Back to the point yes many people on here including myself have no formal qualifications in wiring at all and only we know what we are capable of. The problem is how do we know?

There is also levels of competence, I am perfectly capable of replacing a light switch and I check the rules and regs so I know it will need a grommet and sleeving on the earth etc. However ask my to explain the rules and regs of changing a consumer unit and I wouldn't have a clue.

That should be a test of DIYing. If you don't know the rules you shouldn't do it.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to have a go at IT technicians, just trying to think of an example
Your test seems a good one, but if everyone thought like that there's be no need for forums like this!

Actually, there's a lot more to electrickery than knowing the rules and regs. I've been an electronic engineer for several decades, managed a TV studio, taught basic electrical engineering, and so on, but I didn't realise how much I didn't know about changing a CU until (before the dreaded Part P) I acquired one to update the rewireable Wylex in my house. BS7671 doesn't tell you all the "interesting" stuff like what order to do the various tasks, how to get access to run new circuits, where to hire (and how to use) test equipment, and so on. I got a pro in. He ripped me off, but that's another story!

 

[JohnW2]

But people aren't asking about those things John, they're asking about electrical work. If 'they' were to ask about crossing the road, driving a car, etc in a way that left no doubt that they weren't competent to do so, then they'd probably receive the same sort of response ...

Quite - but isn't that effectively almost exactly what I said?

People have been trying to lead me down side roads in this thread, but if you look back at my early contributions, you will see that I was (some may think surprisingly) more-or-less supporting the 'BAS viewpoint'.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[skotl]

Amazing how these things move on, when you leave it for 24 hours!

I think that we all, for the most, agree with BAS's sentiments. Not saying for a minute that we agree with the way he puts them, but his heart is in the right place. To paraphrase for a moment; "if you don't know what you are doing, then why are you trying?".

Which takes me back to my original point. I think that I understand what is required to remove a lintel, lay a flat roof, install some decking, or replace a CU. But I have now realised, thanks to this forum, that I am competent to do some tasks, but not others.

My contributions to this debate may suggest that I have a soft spot for BAS, but that's not the case; his interpersonal skills could definitely do with some improvement, and he could also usefully realise that explaining "why" sometimes, will help people ascertain whether they have the requisite skills.
Having said that, I believe his heart is in the right place. If I mess up with the wrong kind of creosote, then I need to throw away my fence posts. Inappropriate farting around with electrical bitties is a different story.

Hmmm... now I'm wondering why I started this. Maybe it's actually a plea to BAS to continue as he is, but to consider the folks at the other end of the tirade. Some constructive criticism could go a long way.

Anyway; my very original point still stands. There is more to Electrics than meets the eye and we DIYers need to realise our limitations.

 

[JohnW2]

I think that we all, for the most, agree with BAS's sentiments. .... I believe his heart is in the right place.

Yes, I think most of us probably accept that - but worry because his tone and language are sometimes not only unnecessary and unacceptable but also probably counterproductive.

If I mess up with the wrong kind of creosote, then I need to throw away my fence posts. Inappropriate farting around with electrical bitties is a different story.

That's an ironically unfortunate example - creosote is now regarded as so hazardous that it is no longer available to the general public - only available to 'competent' professionals .... I presume you were talking about modern equivalents of creosote, in which case what you say is true. However, as I've been saying in other threads, I think one sometimes has to keep the risks/hazards in perspective. If he walks along the average high street, Joe Public would be able to buy more than enough power tools, hand tools, medications, household/garden chemicals etc. etc. (not to mention brake system components for his car etc.) to do serious harm to himself or others

Kind Regards, John.