DIY Rewire

[WhiskyFudge]

I am not a qualified electrician and I am planning on rewiring my own home. Having read around this forum and the internet in general there's a lot of conflicting advice (a lot of it to do with the April 2013 changes I think) and a lot of discouraging of DIYer's. I am very keen to do the work myself, to a very high standard and to the letter (if not better) of the current regulations. From my current understanding this is allowed under the current regulations with certain conditions. The purpose of my post and questions is to gain a better understanding of those conditions, rather than a discussion on the pro's and con's of DIYers performing their own rewires.

My current understanding is this:
- Certain domestic electrical work is notifiable to the council's building control department. Specifically notifiable work is limited to the replacement of a consumer unit / installation of a new circuit / any work in a bathroom
- A none competent person may carry out this work as long as the work is inspected within 5 days of completion and an electrical condition report issued
- The work can be assessed by a registered third party assessor or by building control

Assuming I have the above understanding correct, what I don’t understand is:
- Where a registered third party assessor can be found (my many phone calls haven’t returned any results) and what I could expect to be charged
- What would be involved with going to building control directly instead of using a third party
- What time limit (if any) exists on completing the works (is a week acceptable? A month? A year?)

Thanks in advanced for any help people can provide.

 

[EFLImpudence]

My current understanding is this:
- Certain domestic electrical work is notifiable to the council's building control department. Specifically notifiable work is limited to the replacement of a consumer unit / installation of a new circuit / any work in a bathroom

Within the zones of a bathroom or other special locations.

- A none competent person may carry out this work as long as the work is inspected within 5 days of completion and an electrical condition report issued

No. No idea where that comes from.

You must inform the LABC before you start and find out if they deem you competent and then do as they say.

Or employ a registered electrician to supervise throughout and sign for the work.

- The work can be assessed by a registered third party assessor

No. Scheme not yet implemented - shelved?

or by building control

see above.

 

[flameport]

My current understanding is this:
- Certain domestic electrical work is notifiable to the council's building control department. Specifically notifiable work is limited to the replacement of a consumer unit / installation of a new circuit / any work in a bathroom

That is correct.

- A none competent person may carry out this work as long as the work is inspected within 5 days of completion and an electrical condition report issued
- The work can be assessed by a registered third party assessor or by building control

The work needs to be notified to Building Control before it is started, and they are likely to want some form of inspection(s) at various stages. The exact form of those inspections will vary - ask building control what they want. There is no 5 day thing.

There are no third party assessors yet, and probably never will be.

Assuming I have the above understanding correct, what I don’t understand is:
- Where a registered third party assessor can be found (my many phone calls haven’t returned any results) and what I could expect to be charged

There are none, so no prices yet. As the major electrical scheme has stated they will NOT be operating a TP assessor thing, forget about it. There will never be any. Total waste of time.

- What would be involved with going to building control directly instead of using a third party
- What time limit (if any) exists on completing the works (is a week acceptable? A month? A year?)

You send a building notice and the fee to Building Control - it is usually a single sheet of paper with brief details of the work to be done.
There is no specific time limit, several years is certainly an option.

They key thing is that you need to go to Building Control before anything else - they will tell you what they want.

 

[ericmark]

My son did a few through LABC and I have done one and it would seem the inspectors vary a lot. Liverpool was great, Chester was a little more demanding and Flintshire were very particular they would not accept my sons C&G2391 but did accept my degree in electrical and electronic engineering.

The point is both my son and I have wired many houses before the 2004 regulations came in and yet we were questioned very carefully before we were allowed to just wire a wet room for my mother with Flintshire.

The big issue is what will you do while re-wiring? In theroy you can't make a circuit live until passed in practice it depends on the council inspector but to live in the house while it is being re-wired could be a major problem.

It is common for builders to first swap the consumer unit and have just a double socket at the consumer unit until wiring complete then to put it all into the consumer unit on one day.

In theroy the LABC will need to see the installation certificate before he will allow power to be switched on and likely test some circuits to see if your results are the same as his. In practice he may give you some leeway.

The Inspector will not issue an installation certificate he will issue a completion certificate on the viewing of your installation certificate.

Only the person who wires can issue an installation certificate now if the LABC inspector allows you to make circuits live you could get an electrical installation condition report and copy the results onto your installation certificate but in theory you should inspect and test.

The inspection and testing exam is a C&G2391 there is also a cut down version 2392 but even electricians have failed this exam there is quite a low pass rate. Other exams like the C&G2382 only require one to be able to read a book but the 2391 has a practical section and written. I was rather proud when my son passed more than when I passed as I had taught him and clearly I had done it right.

But the test gear can produce danger it's not like a PAT tester where you just plug in and press a button you have to know what you are doing.

My son did one house where the owner wanted to DIY never again. The idea was sound my son would tell him put wire from X to Y and hold in in place with A and B I will return on Tuesday to connect. However on Tuesday either it would not be done or done wrong and so before my son could do the bit he was planned to do he had to correct the work. He spent more time over seeing some one else than it would have taken to do the job him self the result was never again did he allow the owner to help.

As you ask around electricians most have a similar story so getting an electrician to help is hard as most have already been bitten once and are not going to do it again.

In real terms to DIY provision of Part P allows electricians to wire their own houses when they don't normally work on domestic. There will also be the electricians mate and allied trades like instrument mechanic but in real terms DIY without and electrical back ground would be very hard.

Clearly there are some very clever chaps about who can do there own re-wire the point is of course putting a wire from A to B is easy. It is the planning to ensure the loop impedance once complete complies which is the hard bit.

In the main as electricians we don't calculate. We have done enough re-wires to have a good idea to if it's going to be on the edge and we know when to split into another circuit. But as a DIY'er your job is harder than ours as you have no idea as to how much cable you can use in a circuit and still pass so you have to work harder than us and calculate every circuit.

The bible (BS7671:2008) does have all the calculations in it likely you will need to use logs and I don't mean in the old way instead of a calculator I mean powers of numbers. I will be frank if I needed to do it now I would have to get the old text books out. I made up Excel spread sheets to work it out then forgot about how I did it.

I wish you luck and I will help the first advice I will give you is down load the electrical installation certificates free from IET web site and see how much you understand there is a bit of guidance with them. If you think you can fill in the test results then you have the ability to re-wire really it's all down to that.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

My current understanding is this:
- Certain domestic electrical work is notifiable to the council's building control department. Specifically notifiable work is limited to the replacement of a consumer unit / installation of a new circuit / any work in a bathroom

Almost correct, some electrical work within bathrooms is not notifiable, such as replacing existing equipment, repairing damage cables to existing circuits and the notification applies to the zones within the bathroom, anything outside them, it is free for all!

- A none competent person may carry out this work as long as the work is inspected within 5 days of completion and an electrical condition report issued

Electrical installation Cert for new. Not sure about the 5 days, building controls cannot be relied on to make them sort of deadlines.

- The work can be assessed by a registered third party assessor or by building control

Third party assessor, not happened yet, so ignore that.

Assuming I have the above understanding correct, what I don’t understand is:

You haven't, so we can stop assuming!

- Where a registered third party assessor can be found (my many phone calls haven’t returned any results) and what I could expect to be charged

They don't exisit

- What would be involved with going to building control directly instead of using a third party

Application of notifcation, explaining what you intend to do and how you intend to conform to the regulation, acceptance of application, hefty fee, inspection on first fix, inspection and test on commissioning, documentation of results, wait for notice of completion via post.

- What time limit (if any) exists on completing the works (is a week acceptable? A month? A year?)

To do what? Rewire or Inspect and test, both would depend on the size of property, the number of circuits and accessories and accessibility.

Thanks in advanced for any help people can provide.

No worries, get reading the regs mate!

 

[ericmark]

I think the 5 days rule was your waiting time for the LABC inspector. Once you complete a task he has 5 days to inspect before the builder is allowed to crack on with the next stage. Remember it's a building regulation so not limited to electrics.

But you want some flexibility from building inspector so to hold him to 5 day rule would be counter productive. Don't even know if 5 day rule still valid.

A periodic inspection report (PIR) or new name electrical installation condition report (EICR) on domestic is done every 10 years or change of occupant which ever is sooner. The report can go to varying depths and it depends what is asked for by person commissioning the report. In the main all wires hidden in walls are not inspected and often only live tests are completed as often done where power can't be turned off.

An electrical installation certificate starts before any wires are covered up and although it should be completed by person doing the work there is a three signature form so firms can employ a tester who does testing on many sites. He will visit the site at least twice once on first fix and then when completed he will get a feel for the electricians he is working with and will likely visit the bad ones more than the good ones but the main idea is the installation is checked by two people the installer and inspector so there is less likely hood of electricians taking short cuts.

However it does have a down side on one estate at the start the builder was using beams with ready made holes but part way through the estate he swapped to standard wood beams and so using the 1/3 rule for drilling beams resulted in more cable being required for the ring final. This in turn resulted in the loop impedance exceeding the permitted limits. 3 houses were wired before the inspector found this and had to alter the design of the wiring. Had the electrician tested his own work he would have know he was on the limit and this error would not have been made.

Cure was to wire side to side rather than up and down for the two ring final circuits. But this was a new build and the idea of two different people one the installer and one the tester only really works with an empty house where there is no power until final switch on when complete. Also the inspector must have control. His option is simple if the installer gets it wrong he fails the installation.

In theroy nothing wrong in you employing an inspector to test and sign that part of the installation certificate but in practice it is finding some one who the LABC inspector will accept as having the skill and what the LABC inspector wants is to be able to transfer the blame should anything go wrong. So the inspector is giving a professional opinion so he will need professional indemnity insurance where most electricians only required public liability insurance so in the main a normal electrician can't do the job as he has the wrong type of insurance. As to if with LABC taking on the safety of the site is questionable as to if insurance is really required at all but again down to what the LABC inspector says.

I have found on the few jobs I have been involved with the LABC want scheme member electricians to do the testing this presents a problem as scheme member electricians normally under the scheme have to use a single signature form and are contracted to present it to the scheme operator so often the scheme member electricians have to say no. This means it's hard to find some one who the LABC inspector will accept to sign as to inspection and testing.

In theroy you can DIY in practice it's rather hard. As I said before when the LABC inspector would not accept some one with just a C&G 2391 certificate the question is who will they accept to sign it off? Yes they accepted my signature but how many people with a degree will also have the skill to inspect and test and be willing to do it for a reasonable cost.

This has resulted in a lot of unregistered work going on. I have heard many excesses like one guy said "I planned in 2002 when I took my C&G 2391 to re-wire all houses I bought so since planned before 2004 it does not require LABC registration." Who does he really think he's kidding? I would be more honest just to say I'm not paying the LABC for inspection when I know they have no idea anyway. But again insurance and selling of the house will likely be a problem.

I think it will be interesting to see how you get on. Most electricians on domestic are scheme members so don't have to deal with the LABC direct. So if you detail how you get on it will really help those who follow.

As to time one job in Liverpool where the building was being altered ended up being done over 3 years. This did present a problem as my son during this sold his house stopped working as a sole trader and went to live on a narrow boat and got a job which stopped him from doing any electrical work not for the firm. He also no longer had insurance so it was a real problem for the guy getting the work signed off. Don't know how it ended he lost touch likely when my son moved marina. This is always a problem with a long job.

 

[davelx]

I have found on the few jobs I have been involved with the LABC want scheme member electricians to do the testing this presents a problem as scheme member electricians normally under the scheme have to use a single signature form and are contracted to present it to the scheme operator so often the scheme member electricians have to say no. This means it's hard to find some one who the LABC inspector will accept to sign as to inspection and testing.

.

That should not really be the case. There is nothing at all to stop a scheme member electrician doing the inspection and testing on a DIY job that has been notified to LABC and then completing the I & T part of the three part EIC (the DIYer having completed the design & installation sections) and then sending the EIC directly to the LABC for them to issue the completion certificate, if that's how the LABC want to do it. It's not really different from the LABC subbing the I&T out to a scheme member electrician to do the work on their behalf - in both cases the electrician does not notify via his scheme, so scheme conditions do not apply.

Your point about professional indemnity insurance is a different matter though.

 

[EFLImpudence]

It's not really different from the LABC subbing the I&T out to a scheme member electrician to do the work on their behalf - in both cases the electrician does not notify via his scheme, so scheme conditions do not apply.

Therefore in such a case the electrician does not have to be a scheme member.

 

[ericmark]

It's not really different from the LABC subbing the I&T out to a scheme member electrician to do the work on their behalf - in both cases the electrician does not notify via his scheme, so scheme conditions do not apply.

Therefore in such a case the electrician does not have to be a scheme member.

This is true but I think the LABC want something which indicates the electrician has been tested at a regular interval and has passed those tests so they do not have to worry about if they can trust the electrician doing the testing.

In theroy I can inspect and test and fill in the installation certificate but the fact that I passed C&G 2391 back in 2002 does not really tell the LABC inspector if I will do a good job or not.

It of course should not matter the LABC inspector has only to select a few items and re-test to verify my results.

Insurance is something else. Not even sure if the tester needs it as according to the Part P paper work once the LABC take your money safety is down to them so if anyone does unsafe work then still the LABC who is responsible for identifying it.

However watch any builders from hell and it would seem it's never the LABC at fault for letting a builder get away with sub-standard work they always seem immune to any claims.

 

[EFLImpudence]

This is true but I think the LABC want something which indicates the electrician has been tested at a regular interval and has passed those tests so they do not have to worry about if they can trust the electrician doing the testing.

Yes, I'm sure they do.

However, I am sure that the electricians an LABC would choose/do choose/have chosen to do this work for them would have many more qualifications than the membership of a competent person scheme.

 

[maltaron]

I believe that there is probably a vast difference between LABC's. When I built my extension I was initially going to use a "competent" local electrician, however, he let me down by failing to turn up 3 times on pre arranged times. I asked the building inspector if I could DIY the electrics, the answer, " if you feel competent go ahead, there is no additional charge as you have paid for all the job". I did first fix and rang LABC, their electrician came same day, took a cursery look at the wiring and passed it with the comment "ring me when its complete and working and I will come and test it" I rang him, he plugged in his multitester, checked all OK. No certificate was issued to me, he never asked for one from me, and he just notified the building inspector all OK. He had no idea and did not ask if I had tested dead & live before he came.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Maybe he was so well qualified he could just tell.


Seriously though, he didn't do the job, did he?
It just makes a mockery of the mockery that is the procedure and those who do things legally.

 

[WhiskyFudge]

Firstly, thank-you for all the comments made to date - very useful.

As suggested I've taken the step of informing my LABC. They seemed very casual about what I wanted to do (giving me the feeling that it was actually quite a common scenario). Have asked me to complete a Building Notice Application and submit it along with £198 fee. That application needs to contain plans for all the work I'm undertaking. Once I've completed first fix I'll then need to request an inspect (which apparently will be covered under the initial fee) and then once completed they will request that the Local Authorities Building Services will perform a Electrical Condition Survey (at a cost of £240 to me). If my work passes the survey the LABC will issue a Completion Certification.

My plan is to go down the DIY/LABC route and see how it goes. Whilst I have lots of notes as to what I'm intending on doing, I'm waiting for my friendly electrician to return from holiday so that she can guide me in producing and submitting formal plans for the work. It'll also serve as a good sense check that my plans match up with what is required by the reg's. This doesn't sound like the easiest or quickest of routes but I am looking forward to the challenge!

Once I've progressed a little further I'll try to keep this thread up to date with progress in a bit to help others who may choose to go down this route.

 

[ericmark]

I knew the rules had changed and now the LABC could charge for non LABC inspectors on top of the fees. In 2006 the fee was £100 plus vat for first £2000 worth of work to now charge £438 for same work is scandalous.

It is nothing more than a DIY tax.

 

[davelx]

I knew the rules had changed and now the LABC could charge for non LABC inspectors on top of the fees. In 2006 the fee was £100 plus vat for first £2000 worth of work to now charge £438 for same work is scandalous.

It is nothing more than a DIY tax.

Yes, my LABC charges £375 inc when they have to sub in an electrician to do the I&T. They have no electricians on their staff.