Dodgy earth… well no earth at all

[Snakeinthegrass]

thanks ,

The main issue is in the double socket that the appliances plug in has no earth - literally nothing. It has 2 reds and 2 blacks …. Unsheathed. Like someone stripped out a bunch of old t+e and used it on the whole installation. I kid you not.

 

[securespark]

Those old pressed steel cabinets used to have an ancient fuse board built in. Where you see all the red and black conductors channelled down the side is where the cables were fed but the fuse board at the top would have covered it all over. I might guess those are singles that feed into conduit, hence a lack of cpcs.

Or, they could be stripped back T&Es with the cpcs tucked away.

Either way, it needs a damned good investigation and a good rummage around to find out what's going on. That frozen RCD is a fatality in the making.

 

[Snakeinthegrass]

Ah I see . So the conduit would act as cpc up to the socket back box ( ideally ) then jump across to the socket via a link from the metal chassis ( obviously completely omitted in this case. ). This is very helpful. Thanks. Landlord has been informed and seems to be responding positively ( excuse the pun )

 

[AndyPRK]

thank you secure spark for typing that.

Exactly. The whole black area, would have had a cover, with a wylex fusebox appearing at the front.

The meter and chip board have been installed at a later date.
I guess the meter was downstairs in a central area

 

[AndyPRK]

I think there is an earth point at the top left. The black metal work needs earthing (if it isn't already), and that will earth the conduit runs

Then go round with a wander lead testing earths

 

[securespark]

 

[securespark]

Apologies, I have lost my precise source, but it was reddit.

 

[securespark]

thanks ,

The main issue is in the double socket that the appliances plug in has no earth - literally nothing. It has 2 reds and 2 blacks …. Unsheathed. Like someone stripped out a bunch of old t+e and used it on the whole installation. I kid you not.

Missed this post.

You mean you've looked inside a socket?

Are the conductors stranded wires or solid?

Stranded are usually used for conduit installations.

The idea is that the conduit is the cpc. It connects right the way back to the consumer unit solidly and to the main earth terminal. But obviously in this case the system has been butchered by an imbecile.

 

[fixitflav]

The main issue is in the double socket that the appliances plug in has no earth - literally nothing. It has 2 reds and 2 blacks …. Unsheathed. Like someone stripped out a bunch of old t+e and used it on the whole installation. I kid you not.

Many years ago, early 1970s, my ex late mother-in-law was getting mild shocks from her hob, old spiral ring type. I found there was an earth lead from the hob to the switch box on the wall above, where it connected at a stud. But the box was on a brick wall and the incoming cable was L & N only. I ran a wire from the hob to a copper water pipe and that cured it. The hob had been in place many years so no idea why the shocks started when they did.

 

[Jurassicspark]

Many years ago, early 1970s, my ex late mother-in-law was getting mild shocks from her hob, old spiral ring type. I found there was an earth lead from the hob to the switch box on the wall above, where it connected at a stud. But the box was on a brick wall and the incoming cable was L & N only. I ran a wire from the hob to a copper water pipe and that cured it. The hob had been in place many years so no idea why the shocks started when they did.

The body of the hob had induced voltages with no connection to earth. When live wires are in close proximity to unearthed wires then a stray voltage can appear on them.

 

[Murdochcat]

Back to the OP - is there a satisfactory EICR ?

 

[ericmark]

thanks ,

The main issue is in the double socket that the appliances plug in has no earth - literally nothing. It has 2 reds and 2 blacks …. Unsheathed. Like someone stripped out a bunch of old t+e and used it on the whole installation. I kid you not.

Clearly wrong, I would guess originally had conduit which was the earth, and the back box has been changed, likely as old imperial thread not quite 3.5 mm, and the conduit not connected to the new back box. The old conduit was not like we use today, so likely no way to easily connect old conduit to a new back box.

An EICR does not need to test all, the government tried to tap onto an existing system, but there were flaws for example what the government defines as the installation is not the same as what the IET defines it as, so an electrician following the IET can state he has tested 70% for example, this is not what the government wants, but since there is not a special Landlord EICR that stipulates what must be tested in the same way as an MOT does, we get what we often refer to as the drive by EICR where the inspector spends a very short time, and sees it as a way to drum up work when required.

I could, do an EICR even though I have been retired for 10 years, there are no tests to show I am up to standard, the fact I passed my C&G 2391 many years ago, means I could do an EICR even though I know I am no longer fit enough to access the areas that I need to test. I would be stupid to do an EICR without insurance, but to date one read about one case in South Wales where the electrician was taken to court by trading standards, and although fined, that did not help the new owner of the house.

However, if I were to find the fault you have written about, then I would be writing to the landlord to inform him about what has been found, as now you have found the fault, the onus is on you. This is how HSE works, so the fact you have written on this forum, shows you are aware of the serious nature of the fault, you need to make it safe before leaving, turn off the MCB and lock it off at least, verbally telling someone not to use something is not good enough, I would say the landlord would need to rehouse until corrected.

I told my daughter not to use it would show your guilt in a court of law. So I assume now either fixed, or your daughter in a hotel for the night?

 

[securespark]

You do need to get this sorted ASAP.

It appears you have a combination of poor earthing and a lack of RCD protection.

I know it's not your flat, but you need to alert the landlord of all that you know and ask that they get this sorted ASAP for the safety of all the residents.

 

[hllns]

You do need to get this sorted ASAP.

It appears you have a combination of poor earthing and a lack of RCD protection.

The RCD is one of the few things that might be OK?

I turned up with a voltage detector pen and it goes off within a foot of the washing machine and the microwave casing. Checked the consumer unit and there’s just red and blacks out of their sleeve and not an earth wire in sight. The rcd does throw when pressed but with no fault return path at all this can’t be safe at all .

I took this to mean the RCD test button is working as expected.

 

[pete01]

The RCD is one of the few things that might be OK?

I took this to mean the RCD test button is working as expected.

Not much use if theres no earth