Down Lights flickering

[lettuce]

So I replace an old light in an upstairs room with 3 led down lights, these lights use push connectors rather than screw terminal and have 2 sets of connectors for In and Out to allow for easy daisy chaining. I used those spring lever connectors to connect the wires from the last light in the chain to the existing rose and then shoves them all in a wago junction box.

Everything worked fine but I have started to noticed now and again when I power the lights on they will flicker for about 5 seconds and then work fine , in the last week since fitting them I've noticed this happen about 3 times so it's not every time I turn them on. But this evening I turn them on and they didn't come on at all I turn the switch off and on and again and they were came on.

Any ideas where I can start looking to fault find this issue?, would a slightly lose connection on one of the push connectors in 1 of the 3 lights cause this issue or is it a issue with the switch itself or the live switching wire maybe?.

I made sure that all the wires were pushed into the push connectors as best I could but there not easy to work on with the twin and earth cables being so ridged and the limited space in the light itself to fit the cables into.

 

[flameport]

Loose connection at the switch

 

[lettuce]

Thanks, least I don't have to go into the loft again in that case

 

[ericmark]

I have had flicker which changing a bulb has cured, and had 5 bulbs flicker in unison and swapping one bulb has stopped it.

It seems likely in my case it was a miss match switch to bulb, and all one can do is check connections are tight and if they are swap either switch or bulb and see if this cures the problem.

 

[foxhole]

So I replace an old light in an upstairs room with 3 led down lights, these lights use push connectors rather than screw terminal and have 2 sets of connectors for In and Out to allow for easy daisy chaining. I used those spring lever connectors to connect the wires from the last light in the chain to the existing rose and then shoves them all in a wago junction box.

Everything worked fine but I have started to noticed now and again when I power the lights on they will flicker for about 5 seconds and then work fine , in the last week since fitting them I've noticed this happen about 3 times so it's not every time I turn them on. But this evening I turn them on and they didn't come on at all I turn the switch off and on and again and they were came on.

Any ideas where I can start looking to fault find this issue?, would a slightly lose connection on one of the push connectors in 1 of the 3 lights cause this issue or is it a issue with the switch itself or the live switching wire maybe?.

I made sure that all the wires were pushed into the push connectors as best I could but there not easy to work on with the twin and earth cables being so ridged and the limited space in the light itself to fit the cables into.

Is it a dimmer switch ?

 

[JohnW2]

I have had flicker which changing a bulb has cured, and had 5 bulbs flicker in unison and swapping one bulb has stopped it. It seems likely in my case it was a miss match switch to bulb ...

We can't be sure what we're dealing with here, but I don't think one can have a "mismatch" between a bulb/lamp and a 'proper' switch

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

My switches are electronic, but not a dimmer, and I can hear a relay click inside the switch, which does not require a neutral, it switches the lights on/off so it is a proper switch, however it is not an isolator, we have no idea of what type of switch @lettuce has, so it could well be an electronic neutral less switch.

Even with mechanical switches, I have had LED's flicker, although not in unison, and swapping the LED has cured the problem.

We tend to consider faults as we would likely find in our own homes, I have questioned many times why LED bulbs flicker, and I am lucky up to date not had a problem with an integral lamp, I have not reverse engineered the more complex LED bulbs, but there is clearly a lot in them. shows inside a GU10 bulb which failed for me, I am not likely to find the circuit diagram for the chips, or work out why a bulb flickers.

The norm is try simple things first, if not integral change the bulb, if you have electronic switches swap them for mechanical type, give wires a small tug to see if loose or not, one reason I don't like integral lamps, however I have to admit the outside lamp with the integral LED's does work far better than the ones with bulbs in, as the bulb shines away from the base, and base is at the bottom, so they don't light the path as well as the integral type as light directed in the wrong direction.

So can see why we would fit surface mounted integral down lights, instead of drilling holes normally required with the bulb type, and I have an integral wall lamp again as more compact to one with a bulb, cross my fingers it has not yet failed, but should it fail then testing is more of a challenge, as can't test by changing bulb, and if no improvement putting bulb in stock.

The same applies to the strip lights in my display cabinets, all I can do is plug in some thing else into the socket, can't really test the lights, and £25 for a smart strip light is a lot to pay out when not sure what has failed and if just a small part can be replaced, I cross my fingers and hope it lasts a long time.

My son fitted GU10 down lights, and was unlucky, and had a load of failures, but at least only unplug one lamp and replace with another, no rewiring.

 

[robinbanks]

I made sure that all the wires were pushed into the push connectors as best I could but there not easy to work on with the twin and earth cables being so ridged

Easier to run the solid core wiring to a connector box and have a short length of flex to the light unit

 

[lettuce]

Is it a dimmer switch ?

No, but I think the GU10 bulbs I got were dimmerable bulbs if that makes a difference?

 

[robinbanks]

If they're seeing a faltering supply caused by arcing in the switch they could be interpreting it as an instruction to dim

 

[lettuce]

Easier to run the solid core wiring to a connector box and have a short length of flex to the light unit

So don't connect the 1.5mm twin and earth wire directly to the down light terminals but instead run that to a connection block and standard flexi wire from the connection block to the light?

What guage flexi should I be using, 1.5mm again or slightly beefier? Is there a flexi wire you can buy specifically for this which has 3 wires in a jacket?

 

[lettuce]

If they're seeing a faltering supply caused by arcing in the switch they could be interpreting it as an instruction to dim

That make sense. I'll check the wires in the light switch are make sure there all secure. Hopefully it's as simple as that and I don't have to and pull down all the lights and check the connections one buy one

 

[bernardgreen]

My switches are electronic, but not a dimmer, and I can hear a relay click inside the switch, which does not require a neutral, it switches the lights on/off so it is a proper switch,

A proper switch is open circuit when the load it is controlling is switched OFF

A "switch" with a relay inside is not a proper switch.

The relay coil needs some power to operate it. If the switch has access to Live but no access to Neutral then it cannot obtain the power required to operate it's relay.

I think we all know the reality of a "no neutral" switch is that the switch does have access the Neutral via the load ( lamp ) it is controlling. Current flows through the lamp and the switch even when the lamp is OFF

 

[JohnW2]

My switches are electronic ...

That had to be the case, hence my comment - since such issues could not arise with a truly 'proper switch'.

, but not a dimmer, and I can hear a relay click inside the switch, which does not require a neutral, it switches the lights on/off so it is a proper switch,

Not 'proper' in the sense I meant (purely 'mechanical'). If the main output to the load is switched by a relay, that moves one quite a way in the direction of a 'proper switch', but the issue resulting from "not requiring a neutral' remains - since it means that it has to pass some current through the load (at least enough current to operate the relay) even when the switch is 'off' - and it's that which can produce problems/ 'incompatibilities'.

An electronic switch which had a relay output and did require a neutral ought to be fairly problem-free.

A dimmer can, of course, not simply have a 'relay output' but, again, problems would probably be less likely if it did require a neutral.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

OK a switch swaps between two things between two things, be it a switch back (up/down) a set of points (side to side) or a light switch (on/off) so technically a dimmer switch should be called a controller not switch, but in the electrical trade when some thing new comes along we tend to name it after what it has replaced, some times we add another name as well, so electronic transformer replaces a transformer, but my switches do not dim, the only switch on/off, so can't be called a dimmer switch, and since it only turns the lights on/off it really is a switch, even if a very small current flows when off.

As to dimmable it seems manufacturers can't make up their minds. I have dimmable GU10 bulbs which say non-dimmable, this is seems some mean as not for use with dimmer switch, even if it will dim with an app or other remote control others however say these are dimmable, and the clearly are dimmable.

There is also this god knows what that means, it said on the web site I found it on

Whether a bulb is dimmable or not will be clearly marked on the packet; however, there may also be the following symbol as well, which indicates that the bulb may not be suitable for use on certain dimming systems. With LEDs, this symbol indicates that the bulb will work better with a trailing edge dimmer rather than the old fashion leading edge dimmers.

But the old ideas have gone out of the window, however even with a tungsten bulb I have had them flicker due to filament becoming detached, but it was so easy, you changed the bulb first, only if that fails did you look else where.

Today I suppose not that much different, we still use trial and error starting with easiest thing to change, I know I hate changing GU10 bulbs, getting the pins lined up is not easy without the sucker, especially when at the edge of where I can reach, if the bulb needs programming I now do it in a clip on light before I plug it into where it needs to go.

But I have swapped quite a few LED bulbs due to shimmer when turned on, and some give my daughter a headache, the problem is I can't work out why or what makes cause the problem, suspect it would need an oscilloscope to find out if a bulb is flashing rapid, but it does seem cheap bulbs which are technically illegal as no watts or lumen marked on bulbs, seem to work better than the expensive ones.