Downlights from Wickes

[tpot]

Hi guys.

I have just bought a set of downlights from Wickes.
They each require a 65mm hole in the ceiling and they aren't enclosed.

Can these be legally installed in a 30min fire barrier ceiling without a fire dome?

What about an upstairs ceiling through to the loft?

Cheers.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Hi guys.

I have just bought a set of downlights from Wickes.
They each require a 65mm hole in the ceiling and they aren't enclosed.

Can these be legally installed in a 30min fire barrier ceiling without a fire dome?
.

You already know the answer, so why ask?
If the ceiling is a fire barrier you must install fire-rated fittings or witches hats.

Its a fire barrier for a reason. Would you be happy having your kids sleeping up there?

What about an upstairs ceiling through to the loft?

Cheers.

So long as it isn't a bathroom.
How will you maintain your thermal integrity. You'll need to remove your loft insulation from around the downlights, creating cold spots.
Then all of the heat from the house will whoosh up through your downlights and into the loft.
Well, at least your pipes won't freeze...


Oh yes and don't forget about Building Regulations requirements B, C, L and P - possibly others too.

 

[tpot]

Thanks Taylortwocities.

I don't actually *know* the answer. I can read all I like but lack the experience.
The fitting instructions don't mention this and I might just as easily have got a reply saying that in practice the bulb acts as a good enough barrier. Now I don't belive it could but I didn't actually know for sure.
Thought I'd ask before going to the extra trouble. Sorry.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

You already know the answer, so why ask?
If the ceiling is a fire barrier you must install fire-rated fittings or witches hats.

Tests have shown that downlighter holes do not reduce the effectiveness of a 30-minute plasterboard ceiling. 30 minutes does not constitute a barrier between different fire compartments, so if you don't have different compartments, i.e. the ceiling is not in a flat, or over an integral garage, or in a house of more than 2 storeys etc, you don't need firehoods or fire rated fittings.

You might want them, but that's a different matter, and you should probably think about why you want them.

First, go out into your hallway through the non fireproof non self-closing doors, and look up. You'll see an enormous hole in the ceiling.

Second, think about the fact that it isn't fire which kills people, it's smoke inhalation, and fireproof fittings and hoods don't close off until the fire below has got very hot indeed. If you've ever looked at downlights which have been in for a while, or (hopefully not) touched one that's running, you'll know that in normal use they get very hot indeed, and in normal use the intumescent material does not swell up. How hot would a fire in the room below have to be before it got hot enough around the light for the foam to do its stuff?

Put it this way - if people in the rooms above are not out of the house by the time the firehood has been triggered they won't be getting out alive.

If you really want them, fit them, it'll do no harm, but far better would be to invest in good linked alarms and some emergency escape ladders.

Actually - far better would be to not install the wretched things in the first place, but that's another discussion.....

 

[RF Lighting]

Wow I actually agree with ban-all-sheds! Well all apart from the last line but we have done that one to death.

Virtually everyone I know will not fit anything but fire rated downlights regardless of the ceiling type and where they're going, just because they think that's what you're supposed to do these days.

 

[letinman]

not enough info given by the op actually to make a decision

part C is not a consideration
Part P , B ,L ,E may be

Are these light ELV ( 12 volt) if so then its notifiable
are they going in a bathroom if so its notifiable

Do you have three floors if so fire rated fittings are required
Is there insulation above the lights , if so rigid hoods are required

fire rated fittings are so cheap that it is foolish not to fit them really

 

[RF Lighting]

It's foolish even though there is absoloutely no point in doing so?

 

[letinman]

It's foolish even though there is absoloutely no point in doing so?

there is a point though ,

the point may not be to preserve life but it can be to preserve property

 

[RF Lighting]

How?

A standard downlighter will withstand fire for about 30 mins, the same amount of time as a standard plasterboard ceiling.

 

[tpot]

Hi letinman.

Just to confirm the context.

There will be 4 small diameter (65mm) mains (so LV not ELV) going into a dining room ceiling below a bedroom. The house is two storey semi. So I understand from reading online that this is a 30min barrier and not a fire compartment barrier.

The wiring will be 1.5mm 2C+E from an Ashley Hagar jJ501 junction box.

The bulbs will be 9w LEDs. Although I understand that any future occupant might put some crappy high temperature halogens in there. (imo they are a fire risk in themselves). But my question was just about the fire/smoke precautions.

I hope that gives enough info. Just give us a shout if it's not.

And to be honest, I'm not impressed with the light housing now that I have them unpacked!

 

[Taylortwocities]

part C is not a consideration

Resistance to moisture? In upper floors and, in particular, a bathroom that would be important.

Building Regulations England & Wales Approved Document C, Scotland Document 3, as well as the NHBC and other insurers, call for a vapour seal
between the living space and the loft space in order to prevent condensation forming on roof timbers and causing premature rotting.

 

[Chri5]

Is there insulation above the lights , if so rigid hoods are required

Absolute dribble.

So these are illegal then ?

And your suggesting that regulation prevents the old fashioned method of simply clearing insulation around the fitting?
(if thermal loss isnt an issue for the home owner).

Do remember that the op is talking about his existing home, not a new build or extension subject to building control inspections that incorp the full rule book to cover the elements of regs that would apply to a bcs project.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

So these are illegal then ?

It doesn't meet the definition of a "hood", but it is rigid.

And your suggesting that regulation prevents the old fashioned method of simply clearing insulation around the fitting?

That's true.

(if thermal loss isnt an issue for the home owner).

It's not up to him.

Do remember that the op is talking about his existing home, not a new build or extension subject to building control inspections that incorp the full rule book to cover the elements of regs that would apply to a bcs project.

23.—(1) Where a person intends to renovate a thermal element, such work shall be carried out as is necessary to ensure that the whole thermal element complies with the requirements of paragraph L1(a)(i) of Schedule 1.

(2) Where a thermal element is replaced, the new thermal element shall comply with the requirements of paragraph L1(a)(i) of Schedule 1.

 

[letinman]

How?

A standard downlighter will withstand fire for about 30 mins, the same amount of time as a standard plasterboard ceiling.

not seen data on a standard fitting lasting 30 mins , is this a standard fitting that is basically a hole in the ceiling ? how does that stop smoke or fire ? even smoke damages property and kills

 

[letinman]

Is there insulation above the lights , if so rigid hoods are required

Absolute dribble.

So these are illegal then ?

And your suggesting that regulation prevents the old fashioned method of simply clearing insulation around the fitting?
(if thermal loss isnt an issue for the home owner).

Do remember that the op is talking about his existing home, not a new build or extension subject to building control inspections that incorp the full rule book to cover the elements of regs that would apply to a bcs project.

not dribble and no need to be rude
i said the insulation needs holding back such as with a rigid hood, the picture you show is very adequate it is showing a fire rated light and a cover to hold back the insulation, part L1B is for existing dwellings , so it does not need to be a new build
removing the insulation is not sufficient it causes a cold spot as mentioned by some one else