Downlights from Wickes

[letinman]

part C is not a consideration

Resistance to moisture? In upper floors and, in particular, a bathroom that would be important.

Building Regulations England & Wales Approved Document C, Scotland Document 3, as well as the NHBC and other insurers, call for a vapour seal
between the living space and the loft space in order to prevent condensation forming on roof timbers and causing premature rotting.

I dont disagree and my previous statement was not fully thought through, i meant it does not create mositure because there is not a path between inside and out, i was not aware the lights were in a bath room if they are then C may indeed be a consideration

 

[letinman]

Hi letinman.

Just to confirm the context.

There will be 4 small diameter (65mm) mains (so LV not ELV) going into a dining room ceiling below a bedroom. The house is two storey semi. So I understand from reading online that this is a 30min barrier and not a fire compartment barrier.

The wiring will be 1.5mm 2C+E from an Ashley Hagar jJ501 junction box.

The bulbs will be 9w LEDs. Although I understand that any future occupant might put some crappy high temperature halogens in there. (imo they are a fire risk in themselves). But my question was just about the fire/smoke precautions.

I hope that gives enough info. Just give us a shout if it's not.

And to be honest, I'm not impressed with the light housing now that I have them unpacked!

Hi
although i would always use a fire rated , acoustic rated down light, you do not legally have to do so in this situation.
Also a ceiling is ]not a fire barrier it is actually a compartment , now i will get some agro for this but it is actually true !

 

[ban-all-sheds]

not seen data on a standard fitting lasting 30 mins , is this a standard fitting that is basically a hole in the ceiling ?

I can't be bothered right now to register on the TRADA site and find the original material (assuming it's there for free), but I doubt that this is a lie:

Whilst there is not a great deal of research information available on this subject, tests sponsored
by the DETR (now CLG) and carried out by The Timber Research and Development Association*
provided useful guidance.
.
.
.
The above TRADA tests were carried out on typical timber joisted floors (measuring 3.2 x 4.2m)
fitted with up to 24 plastic and metal clipped fittings of various diameters. All indicated that the
unprotected downlighters did not cause premature failure in terms of load bearing capacity,
insulation or integrity. It could be argued that such ‘laboratory’ standards do not represent a floor
after the retrospective removal and replacement of areas of floor decking. Such concerns are
weakened by the fact that patched areas are inevitably supported on noggins or joists and the tests
included decking that was not tongued and grooved. Similar tests were recently carried out by the
BRE*** on typical downlighter and sprinkler head penetrations in various timber floor types. These
reached similar conclusions to the TRADA research.

how does that stop smoke or fire ?

The point is not whether they stop it, but whether they make ceilings any less resistant to fire.

And they don't.

even smoke damages property and kills

Which is what I said.

And fire-rated lights, or firehoods, do not stop smoke. They stop nothing until the gases passing through them reach quite a high temperature ('00s°C)

 

[letinman]

many of the better fire rated lights are also acoustic and fully enclosed so do stop smoke but i do agree with you a light that is fire rated does not mean it will stop smoke, also agree most hoods are not designed to fit snuggly and so also would not stop smoke.

ok as for fire rating of standard lights
i have read the data you refer to years ago and yet i do remember the article it said that the light did not deplete the fire properties of the gypsum based plaster boards however the fact that the light has a hole in it alows flame and smoke to pass freely even if the ceiling itself does not burn the fire can spread

thanks

 

[ban-all-sheds]

That's not what the article says.

 

[letinman]

That's not what the article says.

what does it say then ?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

¿Que?

Read it.

that the light did not deplete the fire properties of the gypsum based plaster boards however the fact that the light has a hole in it alows flame and smoke to pass freely even if the ceiling itself does not burn the fire can spread

You think this is about whether cutting holes in it affects whether plasterboard burns?

 

[letinman]

not sure we understand eachother

i am saying that a hole in plaster board will allow smoke or fire to spread this includes a small hole in a ceiling to allow the cables to pass for a pendant

 

[RF Lighting]

But you plug the hole with metal and glass if you install a downlighter.

 

[letinman]

But you plug the hole with metal and glass if you install a downlighter.

hi

not sufficiently though ,

527.1.1
527.2.1


holes should be filled and risks reduced at all times a fire rated light with an intumescent seal would be one way of satisfy 527.1.1

thanks

 

[RF Lighting]

527.1.1 only applies to fire rated ceilings. It does not apply to standard none fire rated ceilings, which do not require special fittings.

527.2.1 actually says (paraphrasing) that if the ceiling isn't fire rated then there is no requirement to seal penetrations.

 

[letinman]

527.1.1 only applies to fire rated ceilings. It does not apply to standard none fire rated ceilings, which do not require special fittings.

527.2.1 actually says (paraphrasing) that if the ceiling isn't fire rated then there is no requirement to seal penetrations.

527.2.1 states fire resistance (if any) to be maintained
ceilings are compartments rated to 30 minutes so the holes need to be sealed and a 30 min resistance maintained

 

[RF Lighting]

Which a standard downlighter will do. We are going round and round in circles here.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

ceilings are compartments rated to 30 minutes so the holes need to be sealed and a 30 min resistance maintained

THE HOLES DO NOT NEED TO BE SEALED.

READ THE ARTICLE AGAIN.

KEEP READING IT UNTIL YOU REALISE THAT IT REPORTS THAT TESTS DONE BY TRADA SHOW THAT DOWNLIGHTER HOLES IN 30 MINUTE CEILINGS DO NOT POSE A PROBLEM.

 

[letinman]

Which a standard downlighter will do. We are going round and round in circles here.

agreed