Downlights with flex help

[aveatry]

Right then you have all got me thinking now ---- was I mistaken-- have I looked properly-- is there an earth actually there but has been cut right back and I did not see it, I will have to have a closer look

 

[EFLImpudence]

It is the OP stating that the terminals will not take two conductors which make me think it is T&E - it is difficult to imagine that the terminal will not take two 0.75mm² flex conductors.

 

[JohnW2]

It is the OP stating that the terminals will not take two conductors which make me think it is T&E - it is difficult to imagine that the terminal will not take two 0.75mm² flex conductors.

Agreed, but if it were old 'flat twin without earth', then the conductors would be the same size as T&E. Anyway, as you will have seen, the OP is going to re-check the nature of the cable, so maybe it is T+E.

Kind Regards, John

 

[aveatry]

These are the lights to be fitted http://www.screwfix.com/p/robus-fix...ire-rated-downlight-brushed-chrome-240v/99308

The first review says that it is too tight to get two cables in there, so the need for a junction box for each one and then a flex from each light to each junction box

Earth discussion aside for one moment, my original question was/ is.
Do I have to use heat resistant flex (will be led lamps)
Is 0.75 2 core heat resist ok for the flex from lights to the those Ahsley connectors
As I canot find 1mm 2 core heat resist flex

 

[aveatry]

I don't think there is aproblem.
If the OP is now having to use junction boxes -

These are good and specially for the purpose.

- twin and earth can/will be used from box to box and the small flex to each light, so the regulation is met.

Yes thank you, I like the look and design of them - perfect

 

[333rocky333]

if its only a short bit from J/b to a double insulated fitting its sometimes easier to get 3 core and pull the earth out hence making it 2 core

 

[aveatry]

OH MY OH MY
SORRY EVERYONE
I have just been up and there is an earth.

Let me explain (come out with some excuses )
Its only part boarded in the loft and any "off piste" excursions is likely to see me do a Frank Spencer.
Sitting on the insulation is the brown junction box with the the room ceiling supply comming out of it, I could only see a red and black going in from each cable but I just lifted and looked underneath the junction box and the earths have been twisted together under the bottom on the outside of the junction box.
And at the light fitting end the earth has been cut back and not used - so the cable is twin and earth to each light fitting

 

[JohnW2]

if its only a short bit from J/b to a double insulated fitting its sometimes easier to get 3 core and pull the earth out hence making it 2 core

That's all very well, but, strictly speaking, the regs require a CPC to be run to the fitting, even if it is DI ... and since the OP has now found the earth, that should not be a problem (with 3-core flex).

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

That's ok.

All's well, then.

 

[JohnW2]

OH MY OH MY ... SORRY EVERYONE ... I have just been up and there is an earth.

Thanks - that what we were rather expecting. That means that you should be able to run an earth connection from the JBs to each light (even though they don't need earths!) if you want to be fully compliant with the regs.

Theoretically, you should make sure that these earth wires you've found really are connected to earth, but that is probably less of a priority since you are not going to be 'using' them.

Kind Regards, John

 

[aveatry]

Theoretically, you should make sure that these earth wires you've found really are connected to earth, but that is probably less of a priority since you are not going to be 'using' them.

Kind Regards, John

Unlessssss -----------
To be honest one of the reasons for going for those fittings was because they did not need an earth (not got them yet ) because I thought that I did not have an earth ( above that ceiling anyway).
So now I know I have an earth I am not restricted to fittings that dont need one.
I had an electrician fit a light pullcord in another bedroom and I think he tested the upstairs lighting then but how do i test for sure

And if the fittings that I get have enough room for a loop in and loop out can I do it this way with the existing flat twin and earth or do I still have to use a junction box and flex for each one, I am now looking at the ansel icage which states it has a generous connection box for loop in and out

And also as no one has jumped on it - I am assuming that the method that was used 17 years ago to connect the earths twisted together outside and under the junction box is ok then, (not ideal but ok)

 

[JohnW2]

Theoretically, you should make sure that these earth wires you've found really are connected to earth, but that is probably less of a priority since you are not going to be 'using' them.

Unlessssss ----------- To be honest one of the reasons for going for those fittings was because they did not need an earth (not got them yet ) because I thought that I did not have an earth ( above that ceiling anyway). ... So now I know I have an earth I am not restricted to fittings that dont need one.

Fair enough, but if there's a chance that you will need an earth, then you really should test (or get an electrician to test) to confirm that earth wires you've found really are connected to earth. Do you have a multimeter?

And if the fittings that I get have enough room for a loop in and loop out can I do it this way with the existing flat twin and earth ...

Yes, if the cables will reach and if there is enough space in the fitting (and terminsals will take to conductors).

And also as no one has jumped on it - I am assuming that the method that was used 17 years ago to connect the earths twisted together outside and under the junction box is ok then, (not ideal but ok)

Not really. I would have thought that that (once common) practice would have more-or-less died out by 17 years ago, and it's certainly not really acceptable today.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

if there's a chance that you will need an earth, then you really should test (or get an electrician to test) to confirm that earth wires you've found really are connected to earth.

The concern is that you cannot trust the sort of buffoon who would cut the earth core back like that to have connected it properly anywhere.

 

[aveatry]

Do you have a multimeter?

Yes I do

And just checked the re wire was done 18 years ago and not 17 and as you say the practice more or less died out perhaps by then -- so in my case less died out.

The wrapping of the earth wires around to the back of the JB looks very neat and tidy and tight and nicely done and that is part of the reason I did not see any when I first looked at the JB without picking it up to turn over

 

[SimonH2]

Do I have to use heat resistant flex (will be led lamps)

Probably not - it looks like there is a terminal block that's slightly remote from the lamp housing. but you must follow whatever the MI (Manufacturer's Instructions) say.

That fact that you are using LED lamps doesn't matter - because you cannot guarantee that no-one will fit a halogen bulb which will run considerably hotter.

It's much the same argument for having earths. You might have DI fittings, but someone may come along and fit a different unit. Because a lot "don't understand" electrics, if there's no earth then they may well just fit an un-easthed fitting. It's especially insidious if the installer just snipped the CPC at each end of the cable, as then a future DIYer might strip the cable back to get an earth wire - and not realise that it's not actually connected.
The main exception to the rule requiring an earth at every fitting is the pendant light fitting which does allow a 2 core flex - but there must still be an earth in the ceiling rose).