Earthing Spike

[JohnW2]

That's not Utopia. Utopia would be if we had intelligent electrical installations which varied depending on the kind of faults encountered.

"Whatever" - but you know exactly what I mean!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

If any one says that a bath needs earthing then no one in their right mind would go to the garden and bring in a bucket of earth to place the bath on.

However if any says that a bath needs bonding then to use a sealant to stick the bath to the wall would seem a reasonable way to bond it.

Although we may see bonding as "Electrical connection maintaining various exposed-conductive-parts and extraneous-conductive-parts at substantially the same potential." look up bonding in a dictionary and we get "join or be joined securely to something else, especially by means of an adhesive substance, heat, or pressure."

Earthing. Connection of the exposed-conductive-parts of an installation to the main earthing terminal of that installation. Is clearly different to bonding however the real difference is with earthing it connects to main earthing terminal where with bonding it does not have to connect to that main earthing terminal. However I can't think of any house hold bonding which in the end does not connect to the main earthing terminal. There may be times where an IT earth is used where bonding is different to earthing however that system is only allowed in the normal house with a 200 mA maximum current with a shaver socket in all other cases bonding and earthing are the same.

So why confuse the DIY guy with two words which as far as a house goes mean the same and where bonding can also mean something else far better to call it all earthing.

So where do YOU think you will find bonding conductors which don't even if through a round about route connect to the main earthing terminal?

Yes I admit you could have a bathroom with no electrical items fitted using an oil lamp on the wall. However get real when have you ever seen a bathroom without electric lights?

When bonding was required in the bathroom where I worked it always connected to the main earthing terminal I have never seen this theoretical bathroom where nothing that was bonded connected to the main earthing terminal.

 

[RF Lighting]

Bonding and earthing do completely different jobs. That's why they have different names.

Yes they are installed using the same coloured wire, and they may or may not be connected to one another at some point, but that's all they have in common.

Earthing is installed to clear faults.

Bonding is installed to keep potential differences to a minimum.

You need to forget everything you think you know and all these mad hypothetical scenarios which get bandied about on here by the forum wafflers. It really is that simple.

 

[JohnW2]

Bonding and earthing do completely different jobs. That's why they have different names.... earthing is installed to clear faults.
Bonding is installed to keep potential differences to a minimum.
You need to forget everything you think you know and all these mad hypothetical scenarios which get bandied about on here by the forum wafflers. It really is that simple.

Yes, it's that simple when (as in most cases) it is clear which of these two 'jobs' is being done.

However, I agree with eric that it really serves little purpose to confuse DIYers with these terminological arguments. The "mad hypothetical scenarios" (not mine ) and "waffle" only usually arise when some poor OP gets taken to task for using the "wrong word", despite the fact that we all know what is meant. [and we now wait for 'someone' to jump in and tell us how important it is that people are educated to use 'correct terminology']

Kind Regards, John

 

[stillp]

It is very important that people are educated t use correct terminology.

There you are John!

 

[JohnW2]

It is very important that people are educated t use correct terminology. There you are John!

You appear to be poaching on someone else's territory

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Earthing limits duration of touch voltages, bonding limits the value of them.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

 

[JohnW2]

Earthing limits duration of touch voltages, bonding limits the value of them.

In as much as it unavoidably also 'bonds', 'earthing' presumably should achieve both of those things - i.e. a limited touch voltage for a limited duration. Another demonstration, I suppose, of the duality of those two functionalities!

Kind Regards, John

 

[stillp]

Earthing limits duration of touch voltages, bonding limits the value of them.

Someone on this forum used to use that as their signature.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I really object to this attitude that mistakes or gaps in knowledge should not be corrected (and knowledge improved) in case it confuse someone.
The idea that "We know what they really mean so what does it matter?" is dangerous and may not be correct in some instances.

Only today, by coincidence, we had a poster asking if installing earthing conductors was notifiable.
Before the relaxing of the requirements it was.

However he was talking about bonding which never has been notifiable.



You can call this:

Earth It if you want but you will be WRONG.

 

[JohnW2]

I really object to this attitude that mistakes or gaps in knowledge should not be corrected (and knowledge improved) in case it confuse someone. The idea that "We know what they really mean so what does it matter?" is dangerous and may not be correct in some instances. ...

In practical terms, what matters is whether there is any credible scope for doubt about meaning. If there is doubt, then clarification must be sought ....

Only today, by coincidence, we had a poster asking if installing earthing conductors was notifiable. Before the relaxing of the requirements it was. However he was talking about bonding which never has been notifiable.

Good example. In that case there was absolutely no doubt what the OP meant, and he even knew the correct terminology. The title he gave to his thread related to "gas supply bonding", he was talking about a required connection to the incoming gas supply pipe and, although he did use the phrase 'earth cable' at least once in the posts, he never talked, or asked, about an "earthing conductor". We therefore all knew exactly what was being talked about, and that it was something that had never been notifiable.

Kind Regards, John

 

[stillp]

I really object to this attitude that mistakes or gaps in knowledge should not be corrected (and knowledge improved) in case it confuse someone.
The idea that "We know what they really mean so what does it matter?" is dangerous and may not be correct in some instances.

The mistake I always hate is people calling CUs "fuse boxes" and breakers "fuses". Fuses and MCBs have different characteristics.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I really object to this attitude that mistakes or gaps in knowledge should not be corrected (and knowledge improved) in case it confuse someone. The idea that "We know what they really mean so what does it matter?" is dangerous and may not be correct in some instances. ...

In practical terms, what matters is whether there is any credible scope for doubt about meaning.

No, it isn't. It's no different than calling you Dave.

If there is doubt, then clarification must be sought ....

It should be sought first, just in case.
The person calling you Dave while obviously not talking to anyone else should not be corrected, then. OK.

Any one calling the black wire connected to a switch Neutral should be corrected for future reference and knowledge.

Only today, by coincidence, we had a poster asking if installing earthing conductors was notifiable. Before the relaxing of the requirements it was. However he was talking about bonding which never has been notifiable.

Good example. In that case there was absolutely no doubt what the OP meant, and he even knew the correct terminology. The title he gave to his thread related to "gas supply bonding", he was talking about a required connection to the incoming gas supply pipe and, although he did use the phrase 'earth cable' at least once in the posts, he never talked, or asked, about an "earthing conductor". We therefore all knew exactly what was being talked about, and that it was something that had never been notifiable.

We did but he didn't.
He was looking at out of date references and saw Earthing conductors were notifiable and thought that meant what he was doing.

Only people who don't know the difference would use the wrong term so they should be taught.
How else do people learn anything?

 

[PBC_1966]

However I would think you could use something like the old ELCB-v if you wanted to disconnect the supply should the supply earth become 50 volt away from the earth electrode, but it would need to be installed in every house to ensure the DNO supply did not have a earth to real earth voltage over 50 volt.

It wouldn't need to be in every house in order to provide protection in one particular house. It would require the reference earth electrode to be located completely outside the influence of other earth electrodes (including bonded pipework etc.), but so long as that were done it would adequately monitor for failure of the supply neutral. Given that in normal use the neutral shouldn't rise more than few volts above earth potential, it could be made considerably more sensitive, perhaps tripping on as little as 10V. Of course, it would either have to open the incoming neutral ahead of the N-E link, or be provided with a separate switching pole for the earth connection to the neutral, either of which would introduce another potential failure point.