Electric towel rail, timer, zones etc

[Kaymo]

Hi,
Just trying to plan a bathroom layout, would appreciate some pointers on what is allowed, electrically.

There is an electrical point in the bathroom already from where there was previously a jacuzzi bath that wasn't working when we moved in. Seems to be part of a ring main, rather than a spur, and previously fed into a stand-alone RCD unit, which I was surprised to find was installed inside a cabinet directly under the basin - all removed now. Preferred layout along one wall is, left to right, shower enclosure, then towel rail radiator, then basin. The radiator would be GCH and Electric, so its the electric connection this question relates to.

Am I right in saying that a timer for this would have to be located outside of the bathroom entirely, so a spur run from this through the wall to the electric element?

I presume the fused spur is ok to go into zone 2 between the sink and the shower enclosure, and does it have to be un-switched in this location?

Thanks

 

[EFLImpudence]

Am I right in saying that a timer for this would have to be located outside of the bathroom entirely,

Probably - because it will not be suitable for the (steamy) environment and could be described as a switch.

so a spur run from this through the wall to the electric element?

That would be better.

I presume the fused spur is ok to go into zone 2 between the sink and the shower enclosure, and does it have to be un-switched in this location?

Spur ok - switches are not allowed within 600mm. of the shower; the basin is irrelevant.

It will need to have an RCD on the circuit.

 

[Kaymo]

Thanks EFL

It will need to have an RCD on the circuit.

Can I just clarify, I presume you mean that the circuit its on is wired through one of the RCD's in the CU, it doesn't have to be a separate local RCD?

 

[EFLImpudence]

Yes, that's right.

 

[Kaymo]

Thanks EFL.

I'll admit I'm a bit confused about how the basin fits into the zones. When I did a search about this some of the online sources suggested that within 60cm of the basin tap was also zone 2, so I presumed that a switched spur would not be allowed there either. I suppose it doesn't matter either way if its not switched.

Shame about the timer not being allowed in the bathroom, there are two electrical points in the bathroom, no longer needed for anything, and I don't think either will stretch to outside.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I'll admit I'm a bit confused about how the basin fits into the zones. When I did a search about this some of the online sources suggested that within 60cm of the basin tap was also zone 2, so I presumed that a switched spur would not be allowed there either. I suppose it doesn't matter either way if its not switched.

There are many mistakes on line. Basins don't count at all.

Shame about the timer not being allowed in the bathroom,

It would be allowed, as such, more than the 600mm. away from shower, but I doubt you will find one that says it is suitable for in a bath/shower room.

there are two electrical points in the bathroom, no longer needed for anything, and I don't think either will stretch to outside.

Ooooh! Do you mean sockets from when they were under the jacuzzi (which was ok)?
Sockets are not allowed (exposed) within 3m. of the shower.

 

[JohnW2]

I'll admit I'm a bit confused about how the basin fits into the zones. When I did a search about this some of the online sources suggested that within 60cm of the basin tap was also zone 2, so I presumed that a switched spur would not be allowed there either.

There is a lot of mis-information out there. Despite some of the diagrams one can find, to the best of my knowledge a basin has never created a 'zone', and certainly hasn't for many years.

I suppose it doesn't matter either way if its not switched.

Even without a switch it would have to be deemed 'suitable' for use in Zone 2, and I suspect that you might find manufacturers reticent to say that their FCUs were suitable for such a location.

Kind Regards, John
Edit: my typing was too slow again!

 

[Kaymo]

Ooooh! Do you mean sockets from when they were under the jacuzzi (which was ok)?
Sockets are not allowed (exposed) within 3m. of the shower.

No, one was a switched box, going into an RCD, to power the pump. It was inside a wooden cabinet that had a basin on top. The other was a switched box for a shower pump, hidden below a panel in a cupboard. Both probably fitted in the late eighties from what I can gather.

I've measured up and it shouldn't be a problem siting the FCU more than 600mm from the shower enclosure, and although that would put it below the basin it sounds like that's not a problem.

I'm a bit surprised that basins are not in the zones, because thinking through the risk it would see like there would be more risk of water splashing on to something from an open basin, than a (normally) closed shower door.

I'll obviously need to do something with the existing FCU's, I can't just leave the under the floorboards the way they are. I am sure I heard someone recently talking about a product, a box or something, where a connection can be made and hidden, or did I imagine this?

 

[EFLImpudence]

No, one was a switched box, going into an RCD, to power the pump. It was inside a wooden cabinet that had a basin on top. The other was a switched box for a shower pump, hidden below a panel in a cupboard. Both probably fitted in the late eighties from what I can gather.

Ok.

I'm a bit surprised that basins are not in the zones, because thinking through the risk it would see like there would be more risk of water splashing on to something from an open basin, than a (normally) closed shower door.

It's more being stood naked and wet in something rather than the splashes (which don't really matter).

I'll obviously need to do something with the existing FCU's, I can't just leave the under the floorboards the way they are. I am sure I heard someone recently talking about a product, a box or something, where a connection can be made and hidden, or did I imagine this?

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ803.html

There are other makes. Google "Maintenance Free Junction Box".

Or you may be able to replace the wire if you can access where it starts and finishes.

 

[JohnW2]

I'm a bit surprised that basins are not in the zones, because thinking through the risk it would see like there would be more risk of water splashing on to something from an open basin, than a (normally) closed shower door.

As has been said, it's not really splashes that are the issue. In fact, if a room (like a loo) doesn't contain a bath or shower, it does not count as a 'special location', and hence the concept of 'zones' does not exist at all - no matter how many basins/sinks/whatever may be in the room.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Kaymo]

Thanks guys.

 

[Kaymo]

Just after my last post I came across this under the floorboards. Presumably an earlier version of the hidden junction box!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/is8mngpktivw086/2018-05-01 19.21.32.jpg?dl=0

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Looks like a Hartley Octopus.

RF Lighting has photos of them - he might be persuaded to post them here.


Yours might be worth money if in good condition (not life-changing, don't get all damp, but enough to make it worth the effort of selling on eBay).

 

[Kaymo]

I'm less concerned with selling it, more with whether it is safe? I found a picture of the Harley Octopus online, so I presume it is just a junction box and although its metal its presumably earthed to the body - I would just be leaving it where it is if no concerns, or maybe opening and checking the connections first.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

maybe opening and checking the connections first.

Not a bad idea - they are screwed, so should be checked for tightness. And while you are there, earth sleeving, excess exposed conductors, cable clamping etc.

It's supposed to be screwed down, not just lying about, so if you shorten the cables and put a couple of noggins between the joists you might be able to do that.

Then there's that round JB - looks horribly over-stuffed....