electrical bonding issue

[sailorashore]

Hi , I am renovating a house in Germany.
As copper pipe is exy, my mate (a local plumber) says we should use plastic/ally/ plastic pipework for the domestic and central heating systems.
My Question to him is ...Should we then have to bond each sink,radiator etc to earth?
Why? he asks, I reply that with all metal systems the WHOLE system is earthed by the bonding straps (although baths,showers are individually earthed)and the plastic pipe would interrupt this.
Water is a good conductor of electricity, right?
Where will this electricity to come from ?he says Well I'm *** ked if I know! a short in a pump for example.
Anyone know the answer? or am I paranoid?

 

[seco services]

Thats all old hat now days.

 

[sailorashore]

I am asking for an explanation, I've tried Googling it , but no facts
It may be old hat but it's new to me m8

 

[Agile]

Tests have shown that even dirty CH water does not allow even 30 mA to flow.

I did not believe that at first either but if you search you will find its true.

Tony

 

[matt1e]

Hi , I am renovating a house in Germany.

Hi I'm not sure of german regs etc but here is some UK answers

As copper pipe is exy, my mate (a local plumber) says we should use plastic/ally/ plastic pipework for the domestic and central heating systems.
My Question to him is ...Should we then have to bond each sink,radiator etc to earth?

No

Why? he asks, I reply that with all metal systems the WHOLE system is earthed by the bonding straps (although baths,showers are individually earthed)and the plastic pipe would interrupt this.

and actually makes it safer

Water is a good conductor of electricity, right?

wrong!! which is why interupting conducting metal pipe with nonconducting plasic makes it safer (it does conduct , slightly)

Where will this electricity to come from ?he says Well I'm *** ked if I know! a short in a pump for example.
Anyone know the answer? or am I paranoid?

no just mis-informed

Matt

 

[sailorashore]

Ok Matt, it's not that I'm mis-informed I am ignorant of the facts.(there are bull artists here too)AND there are language problems,what with my Cockney Deutch
So it's all OK to go ahead ,just my paranioa !

 

[seasickstevie]

I would suggest it's a German electrician that you need to speak to.
An English spark would only consider putting a (4mm usually) bond to the radiator in the bathroom from the CPCs (Circuit Protective Conductors) on the elec circuits in the bathroom and any other extraneous metal parts in the bathroom, to form an equipotential zone.

But only the bathroom / shower room.

 

[OwainDIYer]

I would suggest it's a German electrician that you need to speak to.
An English spark would only consider putting a (4mm usually) bond to the radiator in the bathroom from the CPCs (Circuit Protective Conductors) on the elec circuits in the bathroom and any other extraneous metal parts in the bathroom, to form an equipotential zone.

But only the bathroom / shower room.

and even that's not necessary now under 17th Ed if all the circuits are RCD protected

 

[mikely]

I am asking for an explanation, I've tried Googling it , but no facts
It may be old hat but it's new to me m8

See this article for an explanation:
http://www.ultimatehandyman.co.uk/EarthingPlasticPipes.pdf

 

[enb54]

Hi , I am renovating a house in Germany.
As copper pipe is exy, my mate (a local plumber) says we should use plastic/ally/ plastic pipework for the domestic and central heating systems.
My Question to him is ...Should we then have to bond each sink,radiator etc to earth?
Why? he asks, I reply that with all metal systems the WHOLE system is earthed by the bonding straps (although baths,showers are individually earthed)and the plastic pipe would interrupt this.
Water is a good conductor of electricity, right?
Where will this electricity to come from ?he says Well I'm *** ked if I know! a short in a pump for example.
Anyone know the answer? or am I paranoid?

So, anywhere on this planet, electricity requires a source and a return. The more sophisticated countries also require a separate electrical protective ground, the so-called "third" wire in the domestic electrical circuit. I am unfamiliar with the wiring regulations in Europe, but have a good idea that all systems in the world require some way to protect the consumer from themselves, and not just by bonding the plumbing or gas line to an electrical ground. Here in North America, we are increasingly moving toward plastic (PEX) water lines and high pressure PVC gas lines so all homes require an "earth" grounding system.

Hope this helps or gives you a few ideas to ponder. If I was in Germany, perhaps I'd google "electrical code" or similar...

Just googled and found perhaps a quick answer at http://www.electrical-contractor.ne...ics/139095/3/Some_german_electrical_info.html , hope this steers you in a direction that helps...

 

[mikely]

So, anywhere on this planet, electricity requires a source and a return. The more sophisticated countries also require a separate electrical protective ground, the so-called "third" wire in the domestic electrical circuit.

That’s earthing (‘grounding’).

I am unfamiliar with the wiring regulations in Europe, but have a good idea that all systems in the world require some way to protect the consumer from themselves, and not just by bonding the plumbing or gas line to an electrical ground.

This is equipotantial bonding, which serves a different purpose to earthing.

 

[Charnwood]

Am I wrong or are some people getting the wrong end of the stick.

It is EARTH bonding and EARTH continuity, surely, not electrical.
Putting plastic pipe in a run will break the earth continuity, therefore making the property more dangerous, not safer.

 

[mikely]

It is equipotential bonding, not earth bonding. The thing that makes a conductive part such as a radiator or sink potentially hazardous is that it may be electrically connected to earth via a water pipe (it is classed as an extraneous conductive part). Using plastic piping breaks this electrical connection thus rendering the installation safer.

 

[enb54]

So, anywhere on this planet, electricity requires a source and a return. The more sophisticated countries also require a separate electrical protective ground, the so-called "third" wire in the domestic electrical circuit.

That’s earthing (‘grounding’).

I am unfamiliar with the wiring regulations in Europe, but have a good idea that all systems in the world require some way to protect the consumer from themselves, and not just by bonding the plumbing or gas line to an electrical ground.

This is equipotantial bonding, which serves a different purpose to earthing.

I think there is a difference in terminology, but regardless, your home electrical feed/distribution panel must be connected to some form of ground (rod?), which in turn must be connected electrically (path wise) to the "neutral" conductor from the electric utility. The residence "protective" ground or as we call it the "third" wire is also connected to the electrical ground but ONLY at the feed/distribution panel (equipotential), NOT at each electrical outlet.

Perhaps I'm missing something in translation?

 

[matt1e]

Am I wrong or are some people getting the wrong end of the stick.

It is EARTH bonding and EARTH continuity, surely, not electrical.
Putting plastic pipe in a run will break the earth continuity, therefore making the property more dangerous, not safer.

You are wrong and are getting confused with "Earthing" and "Bonding"

Bonding pipes together puts them all at the same potential this is necessary when they are extravaneous ie already at "earth potential" eg a metalic pipe that comes out of the ground or electrically in contact with earth by way of the main earth bond
pipes are conductors and sometimes they are at "earth potential" but they are not earthing conductors' so therefore breaking the continuity of the pipe by use of an insulator is safer because it adds resistance
I will try to explain better
In the uk Earth and Neutral are bonded together either at the substation transformer, customer cutout or via true ground using earth stakes etc
I wont go into why just accept that they are
Being connected to neutral means that at all times earth is connected to one side of the supply
you also connect the main earth bond to the pipework
which follows that the earth terminal and anything connected to it (true earth included) is at 230vac referenced to the other side namely Live (Line) at all times
for electrical current to flow it needs a potential difference (the 230v supply in our case) and a circuit to get from one side of the supply to the other
for the current to flow through an object (including you) then they have to be conductive and in contact with both potentials, so touch a conductor thats at line potential then will receive a shock at a magnitude depending on the resistance of your body, shoes, floor, the wall if your other hand is touching it etc (you may receive non at all)
now on the other hand if you were to touch line with one hand and neutral or earth with the other then you will definately receive a shock at a magnitude depending only on your body resistance, this is much worse as there will be less resistance and therefore more current flow (which can kill ya)
so this is the trouble with pipes that are at "earth potential" they are also at "neutral potential" ie physically connected to one side of the electrical supply
and also uninsulated conductors (that can easily be touched by wet hands in the case of bathrooms) so you bond them together to make them the same potential to limit the risk in case of a fault (an equipotential zone)
bonding is there to limit "Touch voltages"
Now if you increase the resistance of the connection of the pipes to the electrical supply which is in effect what using plastic does then it follows that this is much safer

Matt