Electrician couldn't understand this wiring

[rrodd]

Hello all
I had an electrician in the other day to quote for installing an extra light. There is a light at each end of the room and the middle tends to be a bit dark, so I want an extra light there. The house is 3 years old.

There is a 2 gang switch in the room, each gang operates one switch, and they both work fine. There are no ceiling roses and each lamp has twin and earth going to it. (I know that because I replaced one light fitting when I moved in, and checked the other after he'd gone due to his comments.

I would like another light with it's own switch, swapping the 2 gang for a 3 gang.

For various reasons I asked him if he could do it without taking up the floor upstairs. He said he could but he 'doesn't do plastering' so he'd put the plasterboard cut-out back in place and I'd have to have it skimmed myself. Fair enough, I don't mind that.

Anyway, he said he'd have a look in the switch and light fitting to 'check things out' and what he saw he obviously did not like. He made his excuses and left saying he'd have to check his diary and couldn't commit to the job at the moment.

Inside the switch there are 2 cables, each 3 core and earth - 2 brown, 1 blue. I must admin I haven't seen that wiring before, is it possibly because they haven't used junction boxes due to the floor being screwed and glued (taking a board up means it gets destructed in the process)?

Now he has me worried. Either there is something really wrong with the wiring or he's maybe a bit of a 'novice' and not up to the job. Can perhaps some learned members have a look at the photos and give your opinion?

I must admit I was a bit concerned when I saw the wires in the light appeared to be reversed. That light was fitted by the builders and hasn't been touched until now, neither has the switch - I was/am a bit concerned by the exposed conductor, but it's easily fixed.

What do you all think?
Is an extra light possible? Is this wiring safe?

(I did look in the wiring diagram section but the links didn't go anywhere)

 

[flameport]

The wires at the light are wrong (L&N reversed). Easily fixed.

The wiring at the switch is entirely standard and exactly what you would expect in a modern installation.
To change that to a 3 gang switch and add another light controlled by that switch just requires a cable from the switch to the location of the new light.

If you want the wiring concealed, then either the ceiling or floor above needs to be opened. There are ways of doing both.

 

[sparkwright]

The wiring at the switch is fine and perfectly normal in modern houses.

The ideal way to do this work is to run a 1.0 or 1.5mm2 T+E from the switch to the new light position.

The reason he doesn't want to do the job is it involves fishing wires and making damage and generally struggling.

 

[muffking]

There's nothing wrong with your switch wiring. I suspect your spark just didn't want the job.

If it was an actual builder who fitted the lights then he needs his eyes testing, although it's not the end of the world and is easily rectified.

Ask yourself if you want the 3rd light to run off a 3rd switch at the cost of running an extra cable from the switch to the new light. Or if you're willing to have the new light run from one of the existing lights where the only extra wiring required is from one of the lights to the new location.

 

[AndyPRK]

Maybe an uplighter n the wall in the middle of the room ? Plug into a
Socket

 

[RF Lighting]

This is what you currently have in your installation. This is a standard circuit layout taken form our wiki.

Perhaps the person who visited your house was not actually an electrician...

 

[AndyPRK]

Maybe he hadn’t seen switches with loop in terminal. That could be a wtf moment

Or too difficult to install and no spare wires

 

[RF Lighting]

I could do it without opening the walls

 

[sparkwright]

I could do it without opening the walls

Me too.

My way would require some brown sleeving.

 

[muffking]

That's a fair point. There are 4 cables going to the switch after all

 

[Jackrae]

Inside the switch there are 2 cables, each 3 core and earth - 2 brown, 1 blue.

That's not what your photos show. I see 4 blues which suggests 4 cables
What do you actually have

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Now he has me worried. Either there is something really wrong with the wiring or he's maybe a bit of a 'novice' and not up to the job. Can perhaps some learned members have a look at the photos and give your opinion?

If he was genuinely worried or puzzled, yes a bit of a novice.

BTW - it would be much less disruptive and easier if you were able to accept the middle light, coming on with one or other of the existing lights. A choice then of 1, 2 or 3 of the lights on.

 

[EFLImpudence]

That's not what your photos show. I see 4 blues which suggests 4 cables
What do you actually have

...and clearly four brown wires plus the brown link.

 

[rrodd]

Gentlemen (and maybe Ladies), thank you for your replies, I saw them last night and was touched that I'd get so many responses so quickly. I didn't want to reply then because I thought your comments deserved a full response.

I was relieved that none of you thought there was anything wrong with the wiring, and though the latest responses point out a discrepancy in what I said, none of them are screaming that something is wrong.

The truth is, I have had a few problems with the electricity since the house was built.

Briefly, I lost the lights upstairs. The electrician from the builder said that the screws hadn't been tightened in one of the switches and the wires had come loose. He fixed that and agreed to check the others. Whilst doing so he got shocked because that switch he was working on wasn't earthed and the wires had come loose. He got shocked from the switch screw as he undid it.

The central heating didn't work because it wasn't wired up properly. The outside light didn't have a switch - a 2 gang (Hall and stairs) had been fitted when it needed to be 3 gang. The outside light wires were folded up in the back box. The light fitting in the living room fell out as I changed the bulb (stupid cfl bulb that took ages to get bright). The fitting was just screwed into the plasterboard with screws. I got a shock off one of the sockets. It was metal faced and neither the box or socket face was earthed and the wires were loose. At that point I told the builder to inspect everything and ensure it was OK otherwise I'd hire a contractor and give the bill to the builder. When you have a pacemaker, you really can't afford to take risks with electric shocks. Everything was inspected and I know some things needed 'attention'. The thing is, my husband was in hospital after a heart attack at the time, and I really didn't need the stress or risk of electrical shocks.

That was 3 years ago and I haven't had any more problems with the electrics. Sadly my husband died last year so the jobs and improvements that were planned and had been delayed are having to be sorted out by me. Some of them won't get done but a simple extra light should be achievable with the right electrician.

Anyway, that's the background so it really wouldn't have surprised me if something weird had been done with the wiring.

So, to address some of your comments, I did think about putting the new light in tandem with one of the other lights but there are 4 or so joists in between the 2 positions and I really didn't want so many holes in the ceiling so the joists could be drilled through. I had a lot of problems with the floors upstairs creaking and lifting the boards would probably invalidate the guarantee on the repair. It took multiple visits to finally sort it out so I really couldn't cope if they started making noises again. Luckily the switch is right in line with where I want the new light so it should be relatively easy to do.

In terms of a wall light on a flex.... That's what I use now but it does not look good.

So to address some of your comments about the number of wires : I'm sorry it looks like I made a mistake.

The truth is I'm worried about disturbing any of the wires and getting shocked so I simply looked without touching. I've had another look and tried to move some of the wires. I've done another picture looking at where the cables enter the box. It seems there are 3 or maybe 4 (as the later comments suggest) cables. Where they come in is very cramped and they won't move much but I can see the ends of the cables and some are definitely 1 brown, 1 blue & earth. In reality I think there are 4 cables each with brown blue and earth. My apologies, I should have thought about what I wrote (and did the maths!).

I also had a look at another switch to see if that would help - it didn't. Even though it's a single switch there's even more wires : 5 brown, 4 blue, 1 black and what I think is grey tucked in with the blue. But that's an odd number so maybe there's another I couldn't count.

Now, RF kindly put up a picture. I couldn't see how that was what I had. But if my wires are 2+earth, is that how mine are wired? Does it just need another cable from switch to light? I want to understand what's involved so I can sniff a rat the if next electrician tries to rip me off. Without meaning to be rude to you gentlemen who've kindly given up your time to help someone you don't know, there are lots of people who see a women and automatically think 'gullible, naive, and easily ripped off'. The last one was a puncture repair outfit who tried to charge me for balancing all 5 wheels after repairing the spare. Why? Because 'if all wheels are not balanced, the axles will vibrate and could break, but steering and breaking will be badly affected.' I don't know how he kept a straight face, but I left him red faced. I am a woman, but definitely not gullible or easily ripped off, and sadly I've got lots of experience of how some people try to rip off others.

Anyway, sorry for rambling on. Do I have anything to worry about? Can another light +switch be easily added?

Forgot to say, maybe the electrician just didn't want the job - he should have just said rather than leaving me wauting. I left a message the other day but he's not got back to me. I'm not going to chase after him so as soon as I understand what's needed, I'll be looking for another.

 

[muffking]

A good write up.
Firstly, sorry for your loss. I don't know too much about pacemakers, but you were right to avoid the likelihood of a shock. In fact if the electrician received a shock or if it was the story about the builder, then that might have put him off if he was expecting a can of worms.

One thing I would say is that you've had a run of bad luck with the building (or bad workmanship). Either way a decent electrician would work through the switch gear and ensure that the terminations are good and I for one would power down to do that after hearing of your problems.

In terms of being aware of cowboys, you usually get a feel for one. However most electricians are well educated, so you should equally spot a good one. When you do, look after him and he'll look after you just like any good tradesman.

On to the extra light.
I think you are aware that there will be some damage to the plaster in order to get it done. The real question is to what extent. Lifting the floor is not an option judging by your posts, so the options are to stitch the way across the ceiling and possibly down the wall. There is a way to avoid damage to the wall, but that means a bigger hole in the ceiling above the light switch to work on the cables that go in to the ceiling. The rest is just finding the least intrusive way across the ceiling to the new light position. It's a mornings work for some who knows what they're doing and maybe a couple of hundred pounds, plus your lights and then the plastering over.