Electrician training information

[Leonidus]

Hi guys.
I currently work in the electronic security industry but I want to get a formal qualification in a trade and was looking at various electrical college courses.
Could anyone recommend the best courses/qualifications to get because I have spoken to some of these "extensive learn to be a electrician in a week" courses and I don't trust anything like that. So any advice would be appreciated.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

You're not going to learn to be an electrician in a week and if you belief you could be, I suggest you don't bother!

As far as the best way to progress in to this trade, probably find some work with an electrician, get your hands dirty, take notice of the information give to yo regarding the electrical requirements. And if you like it, then a C&G qualification, likely you will need to start a level 2 and then progress to level 3 and onwards if you wish. I understand the level 3 course are now NVQ, so you will require to have some on-site evidence of work to complete that. But it will be the C&G level 2 2365 that you will be wanting. This will take 2 years to complete on a part-time basis and a tad under a year if in full-time education.

 

[deadshort]

Hi, you'll earn more if you specialise in security, fire and access control installs. if you can wire a fcu thats all you require. I would advise a course similar to that British Gas send their engineers on.

Regards,

DS

 

[stillp]

I would advise a course similar to that British Gas send their engineers on.

You mean the course that includes a lobotomy?

 

[ericmark]

Back in 2000 one could do a set of three courses to gain some qualifications for around £70 but today the collages are no longer subsidised and the same courses today are around the £500 mark.

This has been the problem though out time since the first world war. My dad got his qualifications at night class in 1938 there was no day release so there were loads of night classes.

When I stated in 1970's the night classes has gone and unless you could get day release you were stumped.

There were some courses which were still run as night classes inspection and testing both portable and fixed installation and being able to read a book C&G 2381 which then became C&G 2382.

But most the night class courses were designed for electricians updating their skills not new comers to the trade.

Some electricians mates did manage to do course which lifted their skills but these are guys who were in real terms already doing the job and just wanted papers to say they could do it.

Most the short courses were also designed for people already in the trade or an allied trade.

I also moved sidewards originally an auto electrician I wanted paperwork to show I could work on 230 vac. At the time I was able to take the three courses but any more required full time training. When I got recycled I was off work so was at last able to do courses and I did a degree in electrical and electronic engineering.

But it was not easy even with a background as an auto electrician I found what is expected today is very different to in 1970's I had never done calculus or imaginary numbers and the maths was a real challenge. I can admit now I scrapped through by the skin of my teeth.

Working on mainly DC Norton's theorem and Thevenin's theorem were all new.Some things like transmission lines I had done as a radio ham but when I first went to collage we still used a slide rule.

Some of the tasks set seemed strange like draw in word and although I was shown how to write a macro I can't remember now how to do it and still don't know why I needed to know how?

Again my day there were no computers so all this IT stuff was hard. Those who had come from school already knew how to use word. I thought I did until I was given tasks like document tracking and mail merge.

There is still the HND and HNC routes my son took that route and it will take around 4 years of night class. But my son had already started and dropped out of a maths honers degree and it's the maths which is the really hard bit.

So allied trades where you already know the maths yes you have a chance. I remember being asked if I knew logs. I remember using log tables before the calculator came out and thought that was logs. However today what is referred to as logs is very different. I still struggle to convert from powers to logs and one is expected to know these things.

So yes it can be done but it's not easy and you really do need at least 'A' level maths before you start.

 

[Leonidus]

You're not going to learn to be an electrician in a week and if you belief you could be, I suggest you don't bother!.

As far as the best way to progress in to this trade, probably find some work with an electrician, get your hands dirty, take notice of the information give to yo regarding the electrical requirements. And if you like it, then a C&G qualification, likely you will need to start a level 2 and then progress to level 3 and onwards if you wish. I understand the level 3 course are now NVQ, so you will require to have some on-site evidence of work to complete that. But it will be the C&G level 2 2365 that you will be wanting. This will take 2 years to complete on a part-time basis and a tad under a year if in full-time education.

Yeah I fully understand you can't learn in a week which Is why I said I wouldn't trust anything like that. One of the places I rung was advertised as a 3 year course and when I spoke to the guy he said its condensed into two weeks. Haha. One also said to start with them doing the 17th edition even though he knew I had no real electrical backgroud other than wiring spurs etc.

Iv been doing my trade for 10 years and I will never know everything in that so I understand there's no short cut to success.

I will definitely look at the city and guilds courses you reccomend though.

 

[Leonidus]

Hi, you'll earn more if you specialise in security, fire and access control installs. if you can wire a fcu thats all you require. I would advise a course similar to that British Gas send their engineers on.

Regards,

DS

That's what I do at the moment and I know how much money is to be made in the security industry but its the lack of formal qualifications in some areas that bothers me.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

As I understand it the C&G 2365 has now replaced the 2330.

Both level 2 and 3 are NVQ diplomas, so will require on-site evidence.

Unfortunately about 2 years ago the government stop funding these courses, unless you are under 24, or claiming benefits or if over 24 with no quals.

There is a funding loan available though, through 24+ Advanced.

The right path would be to complete level 2 & 3, then wiring regs (as I believe you take the short exam with a level 3 qual). Then you can take the inspection, testing and certification course/exam. Which used to be C&G 2391, but could be anything in 3 years time.

 

[ericmark]

One also said to start with them doing the 17th edition even though he knew I had no real electrical backgroud other than wiring spurs etc.

The 17th Edition is likely easier for some one who knows nothing. The exam shows your ability to read the book no more. To complete within the allotted time you must be able to answer some questions without referring to book.

Normal method is 1) Answer all you think you know. 2) Look up those you don't know. 3) Until time runs out start checking those you thought you knew. After 6 weeks with 2 hours a week most people will pass even with no electrical knowledge.

It will be changing now but it seemed the setters were trying to catch people out. They would ask is "A person with technical knowledge or sufficient experience to enable him/her to avoid dangers which electricity may create." a) Instructed Person, b) Skilled Person, c) Competent person or d) Journeyman?

The "and others" is added to competent person so the two skilled and competent were very close. But in real terms the answer does not show how well you understand only if you can read.

To me every question should combine two rules or at least not use exact wording so is it permitted to fit a 13A socket with 4 meters of supply cable of 2.5mm² from a 32A MCB for example would mean you needed to interpret the 434.2.1 regulation not just read it parrot fashion but they never asked questions like that.

For interest:-
434.2.1 The regulations in Regulation 434.2 shall not be applied to installations situated in locations presenting a fire risk or risk of explosion and or where the requirements for special installations and locations specify different conditions. Amended July 2008

Except where Regulation 434.2.2 or 434.3 applies, a device for protection against fault current may be installed
other than as specified in Regulation 434.2. under the following conditions:

The part of the conductor between the point of reduction of cross-sectional area or other change and the position of the protective device shall:
(i) not exceed 3 m in length, and
(ii) be installed in such a manner as to reduce the risk of fault to a minimum, and
NOTE: This condition may be obtained. for example, by reinforcing the protection of the wiring against external influences
(iii) be installed in such a manner as to reduce to a minimum the risk of fire or danger to persons.

May be it's just as well that type of question is not asked as I have argued many times over the maximum length of a spur and with fellow electricians.

The inspection and testing both fixed and in service equipment however needs more skill. Daft as it may seem many pass the in service equipment (PAT testing) and show latter they really have no idea.

To be fair some items are not easy. I remember doing a rota brooch where the drill was class II but the mag mount base was class I and it transpired it had been tested 6 times as a class II item even though class I.

But again it is never the easy bits which cause problems. Most DIY guys can fit a socket. How many can work out line and neutral have been swapped is another question.

A EICR is only done every 10 years in domestic (5 years Scottish rental property) so you can be taken to task 10 years after the event when for the first time some one checks what you have done.

 

[EFLImpudence]

To me every question should combine two rules or at least not use exact wording so is it permitted to fit a 13A socket with 4 meters of supply cable of 2.5mm² from a 32A MCB for example would mean you needed to interpret the 434.2.1 regulation not just read it parrot fashion but they never asked questions like that.

However, that scenario is allowed by 433.2.2(i) therefore 433.2.2(ii) [3m rule] need not be considered.

Therefore the question is not valid.

May be it's just as well that type of question is not asked as I have argued many times over the maximum length of a spur and with fellow electricians.

That is because you disregard the answer every time it is explained.

A EICR is only done every 10 years in domestic (5 years Scottish rental property) so you can be taken to task 10 years after the event when for the first time some one checks what you have done.

Where is this land where householders have their installations inspected at the recommended intervals?

 

[ericmark]

You may have noticed I did not say which was correct but you have proved the point reading the regs is easy but interpreting what it means is something else.

Forget which is correct the point is the exam does not ask how to interpreter only exactly what the wording says.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

To me every question should combine two rules or at least not use exact wording so is it permitted to fit a 13A socket with 4 meters of supply cable of 2.5mm² from a 32A MCB for example would mean you needed to interpret the 434.2.1 regulation not just read it parrot fashion but they never asked questions like that.

However, that scenario is allowed by 433.2.2(i) therefore 433.2.2(ii) [3m rule] need not be considered.

Therefore the question is not valid.

Also 434.2.1 is about the abnormal positioning of devices for protection against fault currents, and with the "13A socket with 4 meters of supply cable of 2.5mm² from a 32A MCB" that device is in the usual place.

 

[ericmark]

Thank you again as I said it's not the rule but the fact people have problems deciding what it means in real terms.

Another example is are you allowed to fit two RCD's of the same size one feeding the next?

531.2.9 Where, for compliance with the requirements of the regulations for fault protection or otherwise to prevent danger, two or more RCDs are in series, and where discrimination in their operation is necessary to prevent
danger. the characteristics of the devices shall be such that the intended discrimination is achieved.

It would seem answer is no, yet read caravan sites and caravans rules and clearly the answer is yes.

But the C&G2382 does not ask you to interpret the regulations only to know them parrot fashion so it requires no electrical skill to pass the exam.

 

[JohnW2]

Another example is are you allowed to fit two RCD's of the same size one feeding the next?
531.2.9 Where, for compliance with the requirements of the regulations for fault protection or otherwise to prevent danger, two or more RCDs are in series, and where discrimination in their operation is necessary to prevent danger. the characteristics of the devices shall be such that the intended discrimination is achieved.
It would seem answer is no ...

I don't really understand why you say that, at least as a generalisation. It would surely be pretty unusual for "discrimination in their operation to be necessary to prevent danger" - and, in any event, if discrimination were needed, one would obviously not use two RCDs of the same 'size' (I presume you mean IΔn).

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

Again I am not trying to give an answer just point out the whole problem in working out what the regulations are saying rather than answer questions parrot fashion.

To my mind if lost of power can result in danger they we should take measures to avoid it. Be it an area supply problem or and DNO fuse, a MCB or a RCD makes no difference if the loss of supply will result in danger we need to take measures.

Be it a simple emergency light on the stairs or a spring to shut a door when a magnet fails we should always design in a fail safe system.

The whole idea of a house requiring two RCD's because of safety is flawed if losing light means the house is unsafe then it should have emergency lights.

However after the 17th came out we were told again and again consumer units must have at least two RCD's to comply and no where can I find any rule which says that.

Every installation shall be divided into circuits. Is the main statement which then continues with a list of reasons.

"(iv) reduce the possibility of unwanted tripping of RCDs due to excessive protective conductor currents produced by equipment in normal operation."

This is the big one how can anyone work out how many circuits are required? 543.7.2.1 tells us unless special arrangements are made 10 mA is the limit for any circuit, and 612.3.2 gives us 1MΩ = 0.23mA. So at 0.23mA we can even at 15mA total have 65 circuits on one RCD. At 10mA OK but that is the maximum and really no house should have a 10mA drain on a ring and with 3 rings at 5mA each your still within the 15mA lowest drain which can trip a RCD.

So except with really large houses there is really no need for 2 RCD's to comply with regulations. I would agree it makes sense to have dedicated RCD on every circuit and in an ideal world it would be all RCBO's but we are not talking about sensible here it's just complying with regulations.

To be high integrity then we need the double earth and also something to tell the tester it is a high integrity circuit. May be in the amendments there is a notice which must be affixed to the consumer unit as with two colours or lack of lighting earth but unless told it was high integrity I would not test to see if it was high integrity.

But the basic point is the same the exam does not in any shape or form test ones ability to interrupt the regulations it only tests if you can remember or look up enough of the regulations to get a pass mark in a parrot fashion. No electrical skill or knowledge is required to pass the exam. General exam skills and ability to read English is all that is required.

As far as I am aware there is no Welsh version of BS7671 or Welsh language exam and I think the same applies to Cornish, Scottish, Man, and Ulster languages it is in English only.

Since BS7671 is not law it does not need to be in Welsh. Of course laws like Part P will only be valid in Wales if published in Welsh as well as English.

But the whole of the 17th Edition exam is about the ability to read and quite from a book just the same as my English Language exam required me to read Day of the Triffids. Except your allowed the book in the exam.

How this exam is level three I don't know?