Electricians Die

I think one of the articles said that he'd switched the supply off
I wonder what the person who wrote that thought he had done. He, sadly, is not available for questioning.


but it hadn't actually disconnected
So the reporter wrote that he had switched it off (how??), but the switch was faulty? Or didn't do what the reporter assumed the electrician thought it did?

Wouldn't it be nice, one day, to wake up in a world where journalists were competent, or at least possessed of what most people would regard as intelligence.


hence he'd have assumed that he was working on a dead cable. If he hadn't been wearing shorts, and touching the copper piped, then he may well have survived.
He would also have survived if he had verified his assumption that the cable was not live. As he should have done.

As sad as it is, there was nothing in the report which Secure referenced which shows any need for any new regulations or testing or checking. If the electrician had worked in the way which he already knew he should be working he would not have died there.

How would adding more layers of "regular safety checks for electricians" do any good if electricians ignore the safety procedures they already know?
 
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well, since you have a good idea of what the plymouth herald were thingking of when they quoted "Mr Downey's family now hope to raise awareness of risks attached to the profession and the need for regular safety checks for electricians following the tragedy." maybe you can enlighten us rather than just farting across the thread
He won't.

Because he can't.

He is useless at this, and the best he can do is to fart across the thread.
 
I read what the article actually said.
So did I.

But I didn't memorise it, and then when

However, people have been making comments about isolators, and my responses have been to them.

I responded to what they wrote, assuming they were accurately reporting what the article actually said, rather than going back and checking. :oops:
 
I responded to what they wrote, assuming they were accurately reporting what the article actually said, rather than going back and checking. :oops:
I personally didn't see the need for any assuming. Some of the comments about isolators seemed to warrant responses, regardless of whether or not isolators are relevant to the article which started this thread. Discussions have been known to go 'off-topic' :)

Kind Regards, John
 
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I personally didn't see the need for any assuming.
I didn't even realise that I was assuming that this:

I think one of the articles said that he'd switched the supply off but it hadn't actually disconnected

was correct until I read this:

I think you are all labouring under a misapprehension.

It doesn't say there was an isolator but that it should have been isolated.

From the article:
"The health and safety inspector, specialising in Electrical and Control System Engineering, stated in his account that the cut-out fuse had not been disconnected and so was still live when Mr Downey was working.
This should have been isolated before work was completed on the consumer unit, the inquest heard."

and returned to read the article again.


Discussions have been known to go 'off-topic' :)
Surely not.
 
I was working with an electrician who had relocated because of a intendant where he was working, a fellow electrician was fitting a cabinet light, he switched of the isolator on the cabinet, wired the light, then fed the cable down behind the mounting plate with the intention of fishing it out at the bottom, however it seems on installation some one had caught the insulation on the feed to isolator and his cable touched the live conductor and since already connected at the light the earth wire was earthed so caused ionisation of the atmosphere behind the mounting plate causing a large bang and propelling him across the room causing many injuries, at this point one says bad luck, we have all likely done the same.

However the HSE then got involved and just to add insult to the injury they fined him for dangerous practice because he had not isolated else where, then even worse the firm he was working for tried to sue him for loss of production, at this point the guy is in hospital.

Now I think there must be more to the story than this, it can't be as simple as related to me, however the rule is you isolate else where, so when working on a consumer unit you should first switch off the DNO isolator which they should provide, if they have not provided an isolator then we get to the two wrongs not making a right, however where the DNO have not provided an isolator then they can hardly complain when an electrician draws the fuse, however as to replacing the fuse, that is a grey area.

I suppose in theory one should tell the DNO you are going to work on the CU and you require an isolation, however I have seen the problem with time when working with the DNO, freezer full of food so a time constraint, you have maybe a 4 hour window to remove power do the work and reinstate power, it may be you need to reinstate power for an hour then cut it again to complete, it is simply not reasonable to have the DNO in attendance while the work is done.

We know the courts site reasonable so in real terms if the DNO has not provided an isolator then they must expect the seal to be broken from time to time. One is required to isolate else where under HSE rules, there are exceptions however the PPE required to work live is horrendous one is covered in rubber, and even then there are some problems.

I was surprised to find standard Wellington's contain graphite in the mix, it seems if they don't static build up is a problem. So one has to have special Wellington's without the graphite to be safe. If you look at the PPE required by those changing the meters live one realises the problem, ionisation is rare, but it does happen, so when working anywhere without public access the rules are plain, you can't work on your own, at the point where the occupants went out, he should have stopped working, I am sure I am not the only one who had to have a useless mate in order to comply with regulations, the kiwi I had one morning actually turned up to work drunk, next day when sober I read the riot act and told him in no uncertain terms he was there to drive me to medical attention if some thing went wrong, and if not fit to drive, then he should report in sick.

This is a real problem, his death may not have been avoided even if he followed the rules, however by not following then it is considered as death by miss adventure. It does not matter if a cyclist rides on a road where cycling is banned or if an electrician breaks the rules, in both cases they have done something they should know is against the rules. The fact I have many times broken the rules and got away with it does not matter, as an electrician I know what I should do, and if I break the rules then it's my fault.

The apprentice report I can't read, however this is very different, his safety should be ensured by the tradesman he is working under, the old difference between a skilled and competent person, an apprentice should be under a competent person not just skilled, the "and others" is important, this is the same for an electricians mate, we may know the apprentice or mate can do the job, but the Emma Shaw case shows us how unless the guy is officially skilled using him to even do something as simple as plugging in a meter and writing down the readings is not permitted.

OK we look back at our own apprenticeship and remember all the things we were asked to do, but that does not make it right, there must be a sliding scale my dad told me in his day an apprenticeship took 7 years, 5 as an apprentice and 2 as a journeyman, where you had 6 months in 4 different firms to learn the different aspects of the trade. Today the main problem is people can't leave school early enough to be able to do 7 years before they need to support a family. At 14 years old 7 years means 21 before a tradesman, at 18 it means only 3 years to gain the same skills, in order to finish at 21 years old. So the day release has moved to block release and we try to cram 7 years into 3 years. This delay in starting the job training means things are missed.

I did a 5 year apprenticeship my dad thought it was wrong, and now I realise he was right, when I left the local authority where I served my apprenticeship the learning curve was steep. In 1980 when I went to Algeria to work, I had been in the trade 11 years, however the learning curve was very steep, the first 6 months I learnt more than I had in the 11 years before, I was lucky, it did not kill me, and I had some one who helped me. By time I was on my own, I had learnt enough to keep me safe and stop me getting the sack. As an electrician I had not expected to need to know which of the two leavers needed to be moved first to stop one breaking ones arm when starting a caterpillar D8 with a donkey engine, well a D583 as a side boom. OK today one is unlikely to find any large items of plant with donkey engines, but the same applies, without that journeyman one is likely to come across something you have not seen before.

OK we never stop learning, be it a PLC or a PIC there are things which even at 66 we need to learn, I am still trying to work out how to program an arduino uno but at 5 volt unlikely any mistake will kill me. But to my mind you can't teach some one enough to keep them safe in less than 4 years.
 
Iwhere the DNO have not provided an isolator then they can hardly complain when an electrician draws the fuse
Of course they can.


I suppose in theory one should tell the DNO you are going to work on the CU and you require an isolation, however I have seen the problem with time when working with the DNO, freezer full of food so a time constraint, you have maybe a 4 hour window to remove power do the work and reinstate power, it may be you need to reinstate power for an hour then cut it again to complete, it is simply not reasonable to have the DNO in attendance while the work is done.

We know the courts site reasonable so in real terms if the DNO has not provided an isolator then they must expect the seal to be broken from time to time.
I wonder to what extent courts conflate "not reasonable" and "too expensive to comply with the HASAW Act".
 
Of course they can.



I wonder to what extent courts conflate "not reasonable" and "too expensive to comply with the HASAW Act".
This is the whole problem with the British let the court decide system, until some one is takes to court there is no president, once there is a court case, we get case law, so we get things like crown v emma shaw quoted in the courts to show how it was considered in the past.

This is why we employ lawyers etc, it becomes really hard to work out what we can and can't do, some of the rules seem really strange, like the case where three woman went onto a sub and dropped the computers overboard, it would at first seem they had broken the law, however the law allows one to break the law, when in doing so, you prevent a bigger crime from being committed, so international law said nuclear weapons should not be used, and their crime stopped the UK government breaking international law, so it was not deemed as a crime.

To most it seems daft, but that's how British law works. So once there is a court case where some one is fined for not disconnecting the supply else where, until the ruling is over turned then it stands. For all I know it may have been over turned, but I am not a lawyer, I only see the cases which are reported in the press.

But as to theft v heath and safety I would guess heath and safety is likely to win, so I would not expect the DNO to take anyone to court where it may result in them losing the case and having as a result needing to fit isolators on all supplies, threaten and wag a finger yes, but court case too much to lose.
 
Poor fellas. Both involving high current supplies.
What's the normal practice to remove power to the incomer. Snip the DNO's tag on the main fuse?

Would the result have been different if it was a 6A lighting circuit?
 
But as to theft v heath and safety I would guess heath and safety is likely to win, so I would not expect the DNO to take anyone to court
I'm not sure it's that way round. Certainly ukpn's view is that they have no way to comply with the electrical safety at work regs if they allow unrelated people to work on their equipment, as such they don't allow it. Other dnos have taken a different view. And give out temporary seals for use by electricians.
 
What's the normal practice to remove power to the incomer.
Remove the cutout fuse, which is it's primary purpose.

The only other options are:
1. Work live - totally unacceptable and unnecessary.
2. Have the DNO install an isolator - a safe option but unnecessary and has additional cost both in the price paid for it and the extra time taken to have it installed before the CU is replaced. You then have a useless isolator which will never be used again.
3. Have the DNO remove the fuse, someone installs the CU and then have then put the fuse back in. This is never done, and is a theoretical example of what could happen in some parallel fantasy world.
 
3. Have the DNO remove the fuse, someone installs the CU and then have then put the fuse back in. This is never done, and is a theoretical example of what could happen in some parallel fantasy world.
That "never" is surely a long way from reality, isn't it? This is, after all, the way that it is 'meant' to be done.

Kind Regards, John
 
I think one of the articles said that he'd switched the supply off, but it hadn't actually disconnected, hence he'd have assumed that he was working on a dead cable.
Do we have more than one article about the Plymouth electrician?
 
Yes, I googled it as well, but I misread the section regarding the isolator having been turned off. Sorry about that.
 

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