Electricity Or Hydrogen?

[JohnD]

in the early years, the words "too cheap to meter" were bandied about

http://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML1613/ML16131A120.pdf


but were never true.

 

[ChrisR]

I believe it's widely mined, for example Australia is the largest producer of ore and Chilie has the largest reserves, but it is shipped elsewhere often China, for refining.

Alarmingly, China has or is working on controlling interests in Australian, Chilean and African lithium mines - they're really going for anything a bit strategic. Cobalt etc etc too. Part of their World Domination moves.
https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/china-rushes-to-dominate-global-supply-of-lithium/

You could substitute several rare supplies...
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/chinas-stranglehold-on-the-tungsten-market

"Once a leader in the production and trading of rare earths, the United States relinquished the reins to China in the 1990s. "
https://oxford.universitypressschol...90670931.001.0001/oso-9780190670931-chapter-5

Cap'n mannerin, we'rrrre doooomed

 

[ChrisR]

Because our nationalised generating industry owns lots of nuclear power stations?

No, it doesn't. have a look. We're closing most of them. One new one.


Read wot I rote again - we're IMPORTING energy because we don't have enough generation capacity.

 

[ChrisR]

Any country that wants to build its own nuclear weapons starts by building nuclear power stations

apart from a client state that is supplied by another friendly nuclear power

The populace is fed the false story that it is so they will benefit from unlimited cheap non-polluting energy.

We already have the weapons. We need the energy. NP is far from ideal, but given as I believe that the "better" options will NOT get to the quantity of energy we need in time, it's looking attractive.

 

[ChrisR]

At work we are currently building hydrogen injection systems for large diesel engines.
It improves fuel economy by 10-15% upto 70% reduction in particulates, and 25% reduction in carbon monoxide.
Essentially it's just a mini boiler which uses electricity to make hydrogen from water and then has fancy ecu to carry out the injection.
Shipping companies are interested but it's tough to make the m put there money on the table.

What does that do to the engine output power? What about the power to split the water??

 

[sxturbo]

What does that do to the engine output power? What about the power to split the water??

Each unit requires 3kw of power and comes off the ships load.

The engines power is increased a maximum of 10% but I'm told it's minimal in most cases

 

[IT Minion]

Each unit requires 3kw of power and comes off the ships load.

The engines power is increased a maximum of 10% but I'm told it's minimal in most cases

I don't get it. There was a scam a while back where people claimed that generating and then adding hydrogen to an engine boosted efficiency but it was utter rubbish. https://www.autoblog.com/amp/2008/08/04/why-on-board-hydrogen-generators-wont-boost-your-mileage/

I suppose it might work if you're filling up on hydrogen as well as diesel, but generating it locally and getting more useful power out would violate the second law of thermodynamics.

 

[Captain Nemesis]

No, it doesn't. have a look. We're closing most of them. One new one.


Read wot I rote again - we're IMPORTING energy because we don't have enough generation capacity.

Read wot I rote and think about it again. I didnt say the power stations they own are in this country.

 

[sxturbo]

I don't get it. There was a scam a while back where people claimed that generating and then adding hydrogen to an engine boosted efficiency but it was utter rubbish. https://www.autoblog.com/amp/2008/08/04/why-on-board-hydrogen-generators-wont-boost-your-mileage/

I suppose it might work if you're filling up on hydrogen as well as diesel, but generating it locally and getting more useful power out would violate the second law of thermodynamics.

This is on large diesel engines and has been proven to work on such.

It injects hydrogen in via the intake manifold, which then mixes with the diesel in the combustion chamber.

It's not a scam, the results have been good in tests,

We've been assisting with development in Australia, and now the Australian university is validating results.

With the way it works on large diesel engines is, the fuel rack is moved by an electronic actuator or a mechanical hydraulic governor. These auto adjust dependant on the load on the engine. With hydrogen in the mix the combustion has a bigger bang, this means the engine tries to run faster and thus the actuator/governor pulls back the fuel rack to maintain speed, with the fuel rack pulled back Less fuel is injected and used.

 

[fillyboy]

With the way it works on large diesel engines is, the fuel rack is moved by an electronic actuator or a mechanical hydraulic governor. These auto adjust dependant on the load on the engine. With hydrogen in the mix the combustion has a bigger bang, this means the engine tries to run faster and thus the actuator/governor pulls back the fuel rack to maintain speed, with the fuel rack pulled back Less fuel is injected and used.

Old tech.

 

[IT Minion]

This is on large diesel engines and has been proven to work on such.

It injects hydrogen in via the intake manifold, which then mixes with the diesel in the combustion chamber.

It's not a scam, the results have been good in tests,

We've been assisting with development in Australia, and now the Australian university is validating results.

With the way it works on large diesel engines is, the fuel rack is moved by an electronic actuator or a mechanical hydraulic governor. These auto adjust dependant on the load on the engine. With hydrogen in the mix the combustion has a bigger bang, this means the engine tries to run faster and thus the actuator/governor pulls back the fuel rack to maintain speed, with the fuel rack pulled back Less fuel is injected and used.

I can believe all of that, but where does the hydrogen come from? Feeding two different fields into an engine to get more power is believable, perpetual motion machines aren't.

 

[sxturbo]

I can believe all of that, but where does the hydrogen come from? Feeding two different fields into an engine to get more power is believable, perpetual motion machines aren't.

The hydrogen is from an electrolysis method of distilled / deionised water.

When installed in ships and mining trucks the engines are virtually going 24/7 so that's where the difference comes in.

Everyday driving or lorry driving you probably wouldn't see any benefit

 

[IT Minion]

The hydrogen is from an electrolysis method of distilled / deionised water.

When installed in ships and mining trucks the engines are virtually going 24/7 so that's where the difference comes in.

Everyday driving or lorry driving you probably wouldn't see any benefit

As I thought.

But maybe the genius who designed it can start working on transmuting lead into gold afterwards.

I accept that I won't be able to convince you, but it has been tried many times before and it has always turned out as predicted, it doesn't work.

 

[Captain Nemesis]

Surely its only PM if you can power an engine entirely on the fuel it creates.

If getting (sometimes) a larger increase in output than it costs to get it is PM then cars with mechanical superchargers are examples of it...

 

[sxturbo]

As I thought.

But maybe the genius who designed it can start working on transmuting lead into gold afterwards.

I accept that I won't be able to convince you, but it has been tried many times before and it has always turned out as predicted, it doesn't work.

The article you linked to spoke specifically about use in automotive situations,

As I said the situations this is designed for are engines which run 24/7,

it's mainly designed to reduce the emissions, potential fuel savings are just a very small by product. It wouldn't be feasible for old Dorris to pop to Tesco on her weekly shop.

Ships produce an obscene amount of particulate and they have very little if any at all regulation. A lot of these engines are 20 years old and use old inefficient technology for the diesel system, so this was designed as a way to reduce the emissions of these.

Now that the shipping industry is starting to see very minor regulation on emissions the industry is exploring ways to reduce emissions without having to go through the expense of upgrading the engines or scrapping the vessel altogether.