Energy v cost, do people really not know the difference?

[JohnW2]

Try it and see.

Try what? I'm talking about what is essentially a 'subconscious reaction'

 

[morqthana]

I've just done one experimented. I took a small quantity of 'granulated sugar' (sucrose) and first made sure it was dry by cooking it in an oven for a good while. When it had cooled back to room temp, I microwaved it on full power in a "900W" microwave oven for 5 minutes and it only became just about perceptibly warm. With the same microwaving, a similar mass of water would undoubtedly have totally boiled away.

I don't know bout fats, but the reason people believe what they do about sugar in a microwave is that a sugar solution has a higher boiling point that water, so sugary foods get hotter.

 

[morqthana]

Try what? I'm talking about what is essentially a 'subconscious reaction'

Yes, but you have that reaction, then you realise that the clock is wrong, and at that point rather than getting annoyed and putting the clock right, you let it go and say to yourself - "I remember now, that clock is wrong".

And it doesn't take long before you stop "subconsciously" expecting it to be right.

 

[fixitflav]

I've just done one experimented. I took a small quantity of 'granulated sugar' (sucrose) and first made sure it was dry by cooking it in an oven for a good while. When it had cooled back to room temp, I microwaved it on full power in a "900W" microwave oven for 5 minutes and it only became just about perceptibly warm. With the same microwaving, a similar mass of water would undoubtedly have totally boiled away.

So that sugar wasn't all that polar. As you say, nearly all the food you'd microwave has high water content, so in practice it makes little difference

 

[JohnW2]

I don't know bout fats, but the reason people believe what they do about sugar in a microwave is that a sugar solution has a higher boiling point that water, so sugary foods get hotter.

They can believe what they like, but what they are observing is that water cannot remain liquid at temps above 100°.

They could observe exactly the same with conventional heating of a sugar solution (vs. pure water)

 

[JohnW2]

So that sugar wasn't all that polar.

Seemingly not - but having just looked, Mr Wikipedia seems to think that sucrose should be! ...

Polar molecules ..... Other examples include sugars (like sucrose), which have many polar oxygen–hydrogen (−OH) groups and are overall highly polar.​

As you say, nearly all the food you'd microwave has high water content, so in practice it makes little difference

Indeed. Given the above, the sugars situation seems a bit confusing, and none of us seem to be very sure about fats. Things like butter certainly melt very quickly when microwaved, but I think they have quite appreciable water content. In fact, suspect that one would probably be fairly hard-pressed to find any high-fat foodstuff which didn't have an appreciable water content

 

[morqthana]

They can believe what they like, but what they are observing is that water cannot remain liquid at temps above 100°.

Pure water can't.

A sugar solution can. Have you never made jam or marmalade?

 

[morqthana]

In fact, suspect that one would probably be fairly hard-pressed to find any high-fat foodstuff which didn't have an appreciable water content

Oils.

Example of the molecular structure of a common food oil

Oleic acid - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Yes, a capacitor is a good idea.

That depends, whether the clock relies on mains synchronisation, or a quartz oscillator to maintain its time. Quartz is easy to arrange to be kept going, via a battery, or a capacitor. Mains synchronised, is much more difficult - Mains synchronised, and mechanical, is near impossible, though some systems relied upon a clockwork backup, rewound from the mains.

 

[JohnW2]

Pure water can't. A sugar solution can. Have you never made jam or marmalade?

You surely must understand that that was my very point?

They could observe exactly the same thing (sugar solution getting hotter than pure water) in a preserving pan on a hob - so their observation you mentioned has nothing to do with what happens to sugars in a microwave!

 

[JohnW2]

Oils. Example of the molecular structure of a common food oil

Yes, but how polar is it - I haven't got a clue, have you?

 

[JohnW2]

That depends, whether the clock relies on mains synchronisation, or a quartz oscillator to maintain its time. Quartz is easy to arrange to be kept going, via a battery, or a capacitor.

Quite so.

Mains synchronised, is much more difficult - Mains synchronised, and mechanical, is near impossible, though some systems relied upon a clockwork backup, rewound from the mains.

Yes, but you're talking about 'last century' aren't you? Today, we're talking about electronic digital displays, which clearly are not run by mechanical clocks and are very unlikley to be mains-synchronised.

My E7 used to be switched by an electro-mechanical timeswitch with a clockwork backup but, for at least a couple of decades has used an electronic clock (with a battery backup) in my (('dumb') meter.

 

[big-all]

Is that so? I thought it was the water which does it, as unlike suger and fat, it has a polar molecule. But I haven't done any tests.

perhaps it only applies to quite dry items like bacon and anything sugar filled ??

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Today, we're talking about electronic digital displays, which clearly are not run by mechanical clocks and are very unlikley to be mains-synchronised.

You are wrong there - I would suggest most appliance clocks are mains synchronised. Why would they not be? While the mains supply is there, they keep perfect time, when not, they revert to 00:00. Both of our two microwaves, and double oven, are mains synched.

 

[JohnW2]

You are wrong there - I would suggest most appliance clocks are mains synchronised.

Maybe you're right, surprising though I would find that.

Why would they not be? While the mains supply is there, they keep perfect time, when not, they revert to 00:00.

"Why would they not be?" - I would suggest for the very reason we're discussing. When you talk of a 'mains-synchronised clock', what you're really talking about is mains-synchronised interval measurement. So long as there is a mains supply it will do that interval timing more-or-less perfectly, but that is only useful as a 'clock' after someone has given it a reference point from which to 'count' - and the moment the mains supply is lost, that has to be repeated.

The same is true of a crystal-control clock, albeit very slightly less accurately, but it is much easier to provide battery/capacitor back-up for that, so that the need for human re-education about 'actual clock time' will be very much rarer.

Both of our two microwaves, and double oven, are mains synched.

Interesting. As a matter of interest, how do you know that? I couldn't tell you what sort of counter/clock any of my appliances have.