EU Animal Welfare

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

Interesting that there have been so many comments crticising EU animal welfare in these forums, but the UK have just included (and voted on) an amendment in the 'Brexit Law' to reduce the animal welfare in UK once we have left the EU:

MPs have voted to reject the inclusion of animal sentience – the admission that animals feel emotion and pain – into the EU Withdrawal Bill.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...te-mps-agree-eu-withdrawal-bill-a8064676.html

So post-Brexit we will see UK treatment of animals more cruelly than that in Europe!

Let us see the 'animal rights campaigners against EU' wriggle out of this one.

Another intentional misrepresentation by the government:

environment secretary Michael Gove’s pledge to prioritise animal rights during Brexit.

But not after Brexit it would seem!

 

[motorbiking]

I’ve seen this and all the hysteria on social media. But sentience and having nerves aren’t the same thing.

Can anyone actually find the specifics?

This seems more balanced
https://www.bva.co.uk/news-campaign...k-shortfall-on-high-animal-welfare-standards/

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

I’ve seen this and all the hysteria on social media. But sentience and having nerves aren’t the same thing.

Can anyone actually find the specifics?

This seems more balanced
https://www.bva.co.uk/news-campaign...k-shortfall-on-high-animal-welfare-standards/

"Rejection of animal sentience from Brexit Bill risks UK short-fall on high animal welfare standards"
Thanks for the link, mb. It supports the point that animal rights will be reduced after Brexit, the animal rights that are written into the EU's Lisbon treaty, that UK want to remove.

On the definition of sentience: do animals perceive fear? Do animals feel pain? Do animals perceive pleasure?

sentient
Someone sentient is able to feel things, or sense them

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/sentient

 

[motorbiking]

I think you might need something better than a dictionary

http://animalstudiesrepository.org/animsent/

I have no experience of this, but the headlines smell fishy to me. I’d like to see the counter argument presented. Why did they vote i‎t out?

I have too many vegan friends screaming at me to sign this and join that, but i’ve not seen the arguments

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

I think you might need something better than a dictionary
http://animalstudiesrepository.org/animsent/
I have no experience of this, but the headlines smell fishy to me. I’d like to see the counter argument presented. Why did they vote i‎t out?
I have too many vegan friends screaming at me to sign this and join that, but i’ve not seen the arguments

The dictionary quote was merely to show you that there is no connection between feeling pain, fear, pleasure, etc. and having nerves.
Having nerves does not make anything sentient (other than the connections inside the brain).
Your comment "But sentience and having nerves aren’t the same thing." was rather a fatuous and superfluous comment.

If you want to see the arguments, why not read some of the articles in your link. Such as:

Harnad (2016) is mistaken that humans are better at mind-reading than other species. Humans have context-independent language, but nonhuman species, especially mammals, have context-dependent nonverbal skills – perceptual, communicative and social -- that can be much keener than our own.

http://animalstudiesrepository.org/animsent/vol1/iss1/2/

You are presenting questions, with links that support the argument for the inclusion of the amendment in the 'Brexit' bill. Why not read your links or find links that argue against the inclusion of the amendment?
Or find links that support the argument that animals are not sentient?
If your question "Why did they vote it out?" was not a rhetorical question. I would argue that they voted it out in a race to the bottom for animal cruelty. Or maybe it was something to do with foxes.

 

[vinty]

I’ve seen this and all the hysteria on social media. But sentience and having nerves aren’t the same thing.

Can anyone actually find the specifics?

This seems more balanced
https://www.bva.co.uk/news-campaign...k-shortfall-on-high-animal-welfare-standards/

Didn't slave owners believe that black people weren't sentient which allowed them to treat them worse than animals.

 

[motorbiking]

The point is - we have headlines claiming that the government has voted that animals can't feel pain. But nobody bothered to check why they rejected the amendment or read existing legislation that contradicts this, here is 3, that I'm aware of:
Animal Welfare Act 2006
Welfare of Farmed Animals Regulations 2007
Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

The point is - we have headlines claiming that the government has voted that animals can't feel pain. But nobody bothered to check why they rejected the amendment or read existing legislation that contradicts this, here is 3, that I'm aware of:
Animal Welfare Act 2006
Welfare of Farmed Animals Regulations 2007
Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986

None of those Acts you mentioned recognise animals as sentient beings.
Now the reason for not enclosing this bit of EU law directly into UK law was "because this is not the right place for it".
What is this Withdrawal Bill about then, if not for directly transferring EU law into UK law.
Michael Gove says it will happen later..............
Why not simply transfer it straight across, as with other EU law.
Oh no, the government are picking and choosing bits to transfer across and bits to leave out. Weirdly, the bits that they are leaving out are the bits protecting the environment and animals.
The Directive in the Lisbon treaty has all the necessary work done, but no! The government want to water it down and create a whole new set of standards for UK alone.

Animal welfare
Council Directive 98/58/EC on the protection of animals kept for farming purposes which gave general rules for the protection of animals of all species kept for the production of food, wool, skin or fur or for other farming purposes, including fish, reptiles or amphibians. These rules are based on the European Convention for the Protection of Animals kept for Farming Purposes and they reflect the so-called 'Five Freedoms':

• Freedom from hunger and thirst
  
  
• Freedom from discomfort
  
  
• Freedom from pain, injury and disease
  
  
• Freedom to express normal behaviour
  
  
• Freedom from fear and distress

• https://ec.europa.eu/food/animals/welfare_en
  

Something to do with badger culling and foxes, perhaps?

 

[Notch7]

None of those Acts you mentioned recognise animals as sentient beings.
Now the reason for not enclosing this bit of EU law directly into UK law was "because this is not the right place for it".
What is this Withdrawal Bill about then, if not for directly transferring EU law into UK law.
Michael Gove says it will happen later..............
Why not simply transfer it straight across, as with other EU law.
Oh no, the government are picking and choosing bits to transfer across and bits to leave out. Weirdly, the bits that they are leaving out are the bits protecting the environment and animals.
The Directive in the Lisbon treaty has all the necessary work done, but no! The government want to water it down and create a whole new set of standards for UK alone.

• https://ec.europa.eu/food/animals/welfare_en

Something to do with badger culling and foxes, perhaps?

It would interesting to understand the actual reason why the MPs voted against this. I had always been under the impression that the UK lead the way on animal welfare, so if there is to be a lowering of standards, that is very concerning.

I personally think the UK should go further. It seems to me that farming chickens, ducks etc needs to be changed. I know it would make it much more expensive but why shouldnt free range become the minimum standard? (even free range doesnt exactly mean chickens frollicking about a nice big field, but its better than existing minimum standards).

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

I think this article presents a balanced argument:

But Ms Lucas said the government had been "backpedalling" since the vote: "What I was told in the chamber was that they had no need to take any account of my amendment because this principle of animal sentience was already recognised in UK law in the Animal Welfare Act of 2006.
"Now that is patently untrue, wrong and I am very glad in the last 24 hours Michael Gove and others have been rapidly backpedalling and admitting that that's not true.".....

British Veterinary Association senior vice president Gudrun Ravetz told the BBC that there was a "significant difference" between the Article 13 EU protocol, which put a duty on the state to pay full regard to animal welfare when formulating and implementing policies, and the UK legislation, the 2006 Animal Welfare Act, which put the duty on the owner.

The first was "explicit" about "animal sentience", the latter was only "implicit about sentience of animals and vertebrates".

She said while she welcomed what Mr Gove was saying, he had not explained how the UK state would be made to take into account animal welfare.

"That is a very important principle, we have the duty of animal welfare for the owner and keeper under the Animal Welfare Act, and that will continue but what we want to see is that duty to the state," she added.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-42108236

 

[motorbiking]

@Notch7 I think you are on to something, it would be political suicide to do what was reported. I think we probably do lead the way in animal welfare, I don't see a need to state Animals are sentient in order to apply dignity, respect and minimise their suffering. The problem with Animal rights campaigners is they are infiltrated by extremists, who can't accept the consumption of animals and will take drastic steps (e.g. paying people to abuse animals to create a public outcry). Maybe they are right, but society doesn't think so. Social media has gone crazy over this as illustrated by @wannabeDIY article. I think its going to be impossible to get a balanced view. My conclusion is the headlines are wrong and the govt may have a few pro-hunting rebels to appease.

You probably can't trust either view on this. Personally I thought may was bonkers to open the fox hunting debate again.

I'd personally like to see a market develop for male chickens rather than just see them go in the blender at birth.