Extension diy wiring

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Hi all.

I have spoken to an electrician I usually use and he is happy for me to wire myself. He said we can self certify it and he will then check it and we will both have to sign a certificate. Doing it this way saves me money and just get on with it in my own time.

I want to propose a plan for the extension to my electrician before he comes to have a look.

My question is regarding using the existing ring or creating a new one for sockets. I currently have two rings, one for upstairs and one for downstairs. My extension is a single story one which will knock into existing kitchen and create a utility. The only other rooms downstairs are the lounge, hallway, toilet and garage.

In my head, creating a new ring with new wiring makes sense but am unsure if standard practice.
 
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Well f you knocking down a wall which has a socket on it, extending ring makes sense.

Also if the route to the fusebox is difficult then you don’t want to add a ring.

What devices will be plugged into this new room

Oh you say a small utility. You may want to add a 4mm radial.
 
A new circuit requires notification (may be part of your building notice for the extension)

extending an existing circuit does not need notification. All electrical work should be tested and a certificate issued.
 
Well f you knocking down a wall which has a socket on it, extending ring makes sense.

Also if the route to the fusebox is difficult then you don’t want to add a ring.

What devices will be plugged into this new room

Oh you say a small utility. You may want to add a 4mm radial.

The route to the fuse box is easy so no probs. The items being plugged in will be usual kitchen and utility items. Fridge/freezer, dishwasher, microwave, washing machine, dryer, small kitchen items such as toasters, blenders etc! Will also have 2 - 3 outside sockets being spurred off this ring.

I don't mind putting a new ring in for the kitchen only but not sure what's best. I guess just extending the existing ring will be fine.
 
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You also need to consider RCD protection, the idea is should some thing cause the RCD to trip in a room, you will not also be plunged into darkness, bad enough getting a shock, but loosing lights as well is clearly not wanted.

My house presented a problem, as sockets split front to back, and lights split up and down, so no way could I stop lights failing if only using two RCD's. So my house all RCBO's so lights not affected by any fault with sockets.

As to insulation certificate yes space for three signatures, design, installation and inspection plus testing all have a separate space to sign, however that is all well and good with a completion certificate in theory, but the LABC inspector must agree to it, or the scheme member electrician must have third party on his agreement with the scheme provider, it is possible in England, (Not Wales) but in the main if using the LABC to issue the completion certificate they must agree to using multi signature installation certificate.

Design is as the word implies, considering what is there and designing a system that will work, if your signing to say you have designed then you must do it, although all on the same form, the three signatures are for the three parts of the work involved, it is not both signing for same work.

When I used the LABC method I was warned to submit a detailed proposal, as if your vague the inspector can after the you have finished say I am not accepting that, so you need to first find out if electrics covered by a completion (LABC) or complacence (scheme operator) certificate, if latter agree with the scheme electrician what is being done, if former agree with LABC inspector what is being done.

I had a problem with the LABC inspector to get him to accept my qualifications, he would not accept my sons signature he only had C&G 2391 and 2381 (which was at that time the exams for inspection and testing and 16th Edition) he did in the end accept my signature as I also had a degree in electrical and electronic engineering, so don't simply take if for granted that the LABC inspector will allow you to sign, check first.
 
Just reading up on extending the ring and it would seem that 1 ring should not serve more than 100m2 of property and shouldn't have a wire length of more than 60meters. Well my property footprint (including built in garage is 110m2 and am adding a 40m2 extension so would see like it's way over this.
Is this a reason to have a seperate circuit?
 
Just reading up on extending the ring and it would seem that 1 ring should not serve more than 100m2 of property and shouldn't have a wire length of more than 60meters. Well my property footprint (including built in garage is 110m2 and am adding a 40m2 extension so would see like it's way over this.
Is this a reason to have a seperate circuit?

Cable length can be up to 106metres I believe. Call it one reel.
 
;)Like so much else, he believes it in his head. It’s what Orwell called Thought Crime in 1984.

it goes like this


wouldn’t it be absolutely delicious if Winston’s surname was Smith. but it’s probably something else, like Cooke...
 
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Just do the voltage drop calculations yourself. I don't need to spoon feed you.

I have done the calculations. Which regulation in BS7671 mandates that a ring final circuit shall not use more than 106 meters of cable?
 
I looked at the 106 meters and could not work out to start with how it was arrived at, but at that time was a member of the IET and attended many lecturers so I asked.

It seems it is based on drawing 20 amp centre of the ring and the 12 amp even spread, so design current for circuit Ib = 26 amp not 32 amp, once one enters 26 amp into the calculations then you get the 106 meters, however there is no regulations saying one should take Ib at 26 amp, so as the designer you could take other figures as Ib.

@an203888 is correct before the volt drop was increased to 5% in the days when it was at 4% 80 meter was the figure considered as maximum for a ring final with 2.5 mm² cable, and the rule of thumb latter called traditionally was 100² meters.

I found with the correction factor Ct the formal to work out volt drop becomes complex, so I first made a excel program and when excel was not longer included free was a phone redid the program in java script to work out volt drop, I was a little worried that if I give an installation a clean bill of health with an EICR and it had excessive volt drop it could come back and bit me when next EICR was don't and it was found I had missed it. However fact that Ib is not fixed by the regulations, and the error in measuring the impedance once I started to enter figures I realised it would need to be way over limits before anyone could say it was really OTT for volt drop.

However the 20 amp centre of ring is based on a single double socket is normally rated at 20 amp, yes seems strange would expect 26 amp, but it seems the specifications consider 20 amp average is acceptable, which means with a radial on a 20 amp MCB we still take Ib at 20 amp. This means with 2.5 mm² radial down to 32 meters of cable to stay within the volt drop, one reason why I like ring finals. But as said it is down to the designer to decide what Ib is, and oddly there is nothing on the installation certificate to say what Ib has been used, so it is near impossible to say the ring final has too much of a volt drop.

So in the main only the ELI is considered, that is laid out in the regulations, however even that is not as cut and dried as one may think, again told that 0.35Ω is considered as the pass mark for a TN-C-S supply again this is based on volt drop for a 100 amp supply, so with a 60 amp supply it could be higher, but if the supply is 0.25Ω and the ring final centre point is 1.36Ω it has passed, but the supply could change to 0.35Ω latter meaning that ring final centre point is now 1.46Ω so fails, without any changes in the home. One would think you should allow for the supply ELI to alter as often supplied using a ring circuit, which unlike the ring final is not maintained as a ring, it just allows a section to be isolated so it can be worked on, so incoming ELI can alter.

The guide to the regulations is designed as that, a guide, it is not a regulation, back in the days of the 14th edition much of what is now in the guide was in the regulations, but to try to make regulations which it seems people hunt for ways to do minimum yet comply, to give suggestions seem to be taken as rules, even today we have an appendix which to my mind is not the regulations, but since we are tested on our knowledge of the appendix is seems it is taken as the regulations. So we get things like fixed appliances over 2 kW should have a dedicated supply, and the immersion heater has always had a dedicated supply, but it should also include the washing machine, dish washer, oven and tumble drier, but although there may be a dedicated supply to oven rarely is there a dedicated supply to laundry equipment which for some reason seems to end up in the kitchen, why food and laundry should be mixed I have never worked out.

But we are looking at design, and does the guy who designs the house actually say what should be fitted in each room? But returning to the 100² meters if you split a 100² meters into 4 rooms with sockets on the dividing wall you will find you need around 100 meters of cable by time you include the drops and the 1/3 rule on drilling beams.

We see the lollipop design but again although used can't find a regulation about its use, we talk about "current carrying capacity of the cable" which even with the same 2.5 mm² cable can vary along its length due to installation methods, so using a 6 mm² cable to a cooker connection unit and then use a ring final from that can reduce to volt drop in the ring, but I struggle to work out if permitted or not, it makes good sense, and I know it is done, but not sure if it complies, what I am looking at is:-
434.2 Position of devices for protection against fault current
Except where Regulation 434.2.1. 434.2.2 or 434.3 applies, a device providing protection against fault current shall be installed at the point where a reduction in the cross-sectional area or other change causes a reduction in the current-carrying capacity of the conductors of the installation.
I think it complies but not sure, but this of course is the problem, @an203888 is doing the design, and he is going to sign the installation certificate to say he has the skill and has designed the installation, and even when writing this reply I have been looking at the old BS7671:2008 to see how it is worded, and we are now on BS7671:2018 so a bit outdated. Most of our design is rule of thumb and tradition, we don't work it all out from scratch, but @an203888 has a problem, some one from the LABC is going to look at his work, he may be a sensible fella and say yes that's fine, or he could draw air through his teeth and say those hated words "jobs worth".

So what we are trying to do is to second guess what he will or will not permit.
 

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