Extractor fan need 3 amp fuse

[morqthana]

It amazes me too how many installers have the attitude of "that's what the instructions say so that's what it'll have", thereby unncessarily complicating the installation. For me, the tenuous nature of 'invalidating warranties' just doesn't cut it.

You will find that if there is one single defining characteristic shared by all tradesmen in the UK it is an inability, verging on a perverse refusal, to think for themselves

 

[JohnW2]

I disagree with your reading of this. You seem to be omitting the full stop, and new paragraph number 3.

Eh? I'm not missing anything.

I included the last couple of lines of Instruction (2) merely to indicate that it presumably is acknowledging that the product may be installed in a country other than the UK ..

... and then, as a totally different issue, Instruction (3) says that there must be a 3A fuse - so, as I asked, if someone outside of the UK (like yourself) were reading those instructions, how would they bee expected to implement the requirement for a 3A fuse in their country ?

Kind Regards, John

 

[morqthana]

View attachment 323516

I disagree with your reading of this.

You seem to be omitting the full stop, and new paragraph number 3.

Would this be clearer?

View attachment 323517
End________________________________________________________________________
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View attachment 323518

All it needs is a comma here:

 

[JohnW2]

It hasn't existed here for 17 years.

Exactly

They can't. Which just proves that the maker is utterly clueless.

Quite so.

To my mind those are falsehoods which are egregious enough to be classed as lies, and therefore, in an ideal world, would see the directors of Manrose facing prison sentences. .... And yes, I really do mean that.

Yes, and I believe that you really mean it - you are well know for such (sincerely held) views!

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

All it needs is a comma here:

That's even better - but, as I wrote, I was already assuming that, and only included a small bit of Instruction (2) to indicate the expectation that the instructions would/could be read by people outside of the UK (which, as I went on to say, makes practical nonsense of the subsequent 'requirement' for a '3A fuse').

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

You will find that if there is one single defining characteristic shared by all tradesmen in the UK it is an inability, verging on a perverse refusal, to think for themselves

In a proportion of them, yes - but exactly the same is also seen in proportions of people other than 'tradesmen'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ebee]

In reality I do not envisage the person responsible for re-issue under warranty would need proof that a 3A fuse was fitted anyway.
Nowadays the regs requires us to take MI into account rather than as previously follow them blindly.
So, providing you apply sound engineering judgement, I think it is OK.
I think that sound engineering judgement itself can only be obtained not just be the nature of experience/qualifications but by being reviewed by our peers too.
Personally, I think a 6A MCB is adequate.
Anyone of the opinion that if the L conductor is protected by a 3A fuse then the SL conductor should also be protected by the very same 3A fuse?

 

[EFLImpudence]

I included the last couple of lines of Instruction (2) merely to indicate that it presumably is acknowledging that the product may be installed in a country other than the UK ..

Yes but it says to follow local regulations as the instructions are written in English for the UK.

... and then, as a totally different issue, Instruction (3) says that there must be a 3A fuse

Not totally different; continuing their instructions for the UK.

- so, as I asked, if someone outside of the UK (like yourself) were reading those instructions,

Well, they wouldn't be reading them, would they?

how would they be expected to implement the requirement for a 3A fuse in their country ?

Even if they were reading them, they would read the instruction to follow the local regulations and do so.
It would be interesting to know the instructions given for the same item in Europe.

Leaving aside the "fused spur" (surely that proves they don't know what they are talking about) - any competent person should immediately realise that by following the local regulations, even in the UK, neither local isolation nor a 3A fuse is required for a fan.

That raises the question of why a manufacturer would demand local isolation for a product in the first place.
What difference does that make to its working?
Cue the daftest of reasons that with no window you can repair it with the light on. Yeah right!


Surely, the so-called manufacturer's instructions are just "wot sumwun rote" thinking they were the UK regulations.

 

[JohnW2]

Yes but it says to follow local regulations as the instructions are written in English for the UK.

This is getting to be hard work

As I said, although the instruction are written in English, they contain the phrase "if outside UK" - which surely indicates that they acknowledge that the instructions may be read by, and 'implemented' by, someone outside of the UK, doesn't it?

Not totally different; continuing their instructions for the UK.

(3) is a "totally different" instruction from (3), relating to "totally different" things, and nothing in (3) says that it is an instruction which only applies to the UK - that's surely the whole point of what I am saying.

Well, they wouldn't be reading them, would they?

If the instructions had not been written on the basis that they might be read by someone outside of the UK, why would they contain the phrase "if outside UK"?

Even if they were reading them, they would read the instruction to follow the local regulations and do so.
It would be interesting to know the instructions given for the same item in Europe.

Again as above, the reference to following local regulations i part of instruction (2). There is nothing in instruction (3) which indicates, or even suggests, that the 'requirements' of (3) don't apply (and one should, instead, follow relevant locally regulations)

I'm more than a little surprised that you appear to be 'defending' them!!

Leaving aside the "fused spur" (surely that proves they don't know what they are talking about) - any competent person should immediately realise that by following the local regulations, even in the UK, neither local isolation nor a 3A fuse is required for a fan.

I see no claim that the explicit requirements of the instructions [e.g. Instruction (3)]have anything to do with regulatory requirements - that are simply ones that the manufacturer themselves are trying to impose, aren't they?
, in any country.(in addition

Surely, the so-called manufacturer's instructions are just "wot sumwun rote" thinking they were the UK regulations.

As above, I don't think so. They seem to be (themselves) requiring things in addition to the regulatory requirements of the country concerned- since they also say that "All wiring must comply with current I.E.E Regulations or local regulations if outside of UK"

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

Don't give too much credence to other things written by someone who, in an official document, calls an FCU a fused spur.

There probably are no logical answers to your queries; it is just sumfin wot sumwun rote.

 

[JohnW2]

Don't give too much credence to other things written by someone who, in an official document, calls an FCU a fused spur.

I definitely don't - which is why I (and you) have a different view/approach from those who feel constrained/compelled/'advised' to obey every word of these daft documents.

There probably are no logical answers to your queries; it is just sumfin wot sumwun rote.

I'm not sure that I have voiced any "queries" - all I ever really do in these discussions is give my personal view regarding the 'electrical common sense' consdierations.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

... It would be interesting to know the instructions given for the same item in Europe.....

I've found some Xpelair MIs which come in 10 laguages (perhaps surprisingly, not including Spanish or Portugese). There is a single set of diagrams at the start (i.e. common to all languages), which inclues this one:

... note that it includes a 'DP isolator' and a "fuse" (on unspecified rating!).

That diagram is referred to in every language text, such as (in languages I know at least something about!) ...

... and even in Arabic,although I'm not certain as regards what it's saying about the diagram ) ....

...so, it would seem to be that if one is reading it in any of those 10 languages (most probably because one is in a country where it is the most common language), one is being told to include a DP isolator and a "Fuse" (of unspecified rating - although I have to wonder how one is expected to implement the latter (even after deciding which fuse to use!) in non-UK countries.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

Does that not prove that MIs are unreliable and written by those who lack the knowledge to do it like the MK MIs written by the marketing department.


I have this from an Addvent PDF (but I don't know how to retrieve the link).

So, as I said, there are probably no answers.

 

[JohnW2]

In reality I do not envisage the person responsible for re-issue under warranty would need proof that a 3A fuse was fitted anyway.

One would hope that would be the case, but one does hear stories about very silly attempts to wriggle out of warranty claims on the part of some companies.

Nowadays the regs requires us to take MI into account rather than as previously follow them blindly. So, providing you apply sound engineering judgement, I think it is OK. I think that sound engineering judgement itself can only be obtained not just be the nature of experience/qualifications but by being reviewed by our peers too.

All agreed.

Personally, I think a 6A MCB is adequate.

So do I, sort-of What I really think is that it no OPD, of any credible rating, stands much chance or preventing, or even reducing to a useful extent, the damage consequent upon a fault within the fan that results in an overcurrent high enough to cause the OPD to operate.

Anyone of the opinion that if the L conductor is protected by a 3A fuse then the SL conductor should also be protected by the very same 3A fuse?

I've already commented on that, and my answer (in terms of 'electrical common sense') was essentially 'no' - on the basis that the only two situations I could think of that would/could cause overcurrent in the S/L feed (a 'new path' from the S/L terminal 'appearing', or the input resistor "failing S/C") would both seem to be 'incredibly improbable'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Does that not prove that MIs are unreliable and written by those who lack the knowledge to do it like the MK MIs written by the marketing department.

Of course it does - but neither of us (nor many others) have suggested otherwise, have we?

The only reason we have to repeatedly re-visit this issue (and always come to the same conclusions) is that we continue to see (as we did in this thread) some people advocating/advising doing something simply "because the MIs 'require' it" - and seeming even if the MIs are daft, or even frankly 'wrong'.

Kind Regards, John