Forms of transport, what are the alternatives.

[ericmark]

I read today about reduced bus services and how people are turning to cars.

It is OK for me, does not matter, retired, so does not matter if I arrive in town at 8 am or 12 am, I only need around 2 hours in town, however to replace the car with other transport, you need to arrive before work is due to start, and can't leave before your work is completed.

I could in the 70's get to work by bus, and even latter some routes could be done by bus, however the cost was getting silly, in the main due to multiple companies running the service. So a trip of 15 miles from Mold to Ellesmere Port for example required 3 buses, one there and two to return, each had weekly tickets, so cost at turn of century £60 a week when earning in my daughters case around £80, it was a case of get a car or not work. And once one has the car, you can forget using a bus.

With raising fuel costs, and Colvid on the wane, we have a chance of replacing the car, but even the push bike has problems, I use an e-bike, I can get to and from local town, round trip 16 miles, just about, still a hard push on the hills of Wales, and I can just about beat the train, which takes 50 minutes. But only runs 5 days a week and three times a day summer only. First train arrives 11 am, so OK for me, but not for anyone trying to get to work.

At one time buses Mold to Ruthin had cycle racks, alas no more. Even the train, unless the bike folds, then hard to get them on.

It seems scooters are not legal as no pedals and only brakes on one wheel. So what's the answer to future transport?

 

[RandomGrinch]

I can just imagine you on a Harley!

LiveWire Motorcycle | Harley-Davidson UK

The first Harley‑Davidson electric motorcycle. Instant power and acceleration. Delivers a level of exhilaration unlike anything else.

www.harley-davidson.com

 

[Koolpc]

Buy a horse!

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Conventional motorbikes seem fairly cheap at the lower end, electric motorbikes? Supposed to be about 8p/mile to charge and run (not including insurance/depreciation etc).

 

[RandomGrinch]

Buy a horse!

You may be on to something - apparently horses are carbon 'sinks':

Horsetalk.co.nz

equine research and information

www.horsetalk.co.nz

 

[ericmark]

I can just imagine you on a Harley!

Well at the moment do have a licence for one, however I think my days on big motorcycles is over, after riding one in the Falklands and while standing on the foot rests unbeknown to me the seat fell off, and I slumped down on what I thought was a seat but was only a bracket, it brought water to my eyes, and not ridden one since, or had any more children.

This is my limit today, an e-bike, folding so I can be rescued when it all goes wrong.

 

[Avocet]

You may be on to something - apparently horses are carbon 'sinks':

Horsetalk.co.nz

equine research and information

www.horsetalk.co.nz

Horses are awful! They fart methane, which I think is about 4x worse than CO2 as a greenhouse gas, and eat stuff that could otherwise be absorbing CO2!

 

[ericmark]

Conventional motorbikes seem fairly cheap at the lower end, electric motorbikes? Supposed to be about 8p/mile to charge and run (not including insurance/depreciation etc).

That was the case, I remember in the 70's a 650 cc motorbike was doing 60 MPG, and scooters around 100 MPG my Honda P50 stated 254 MPG on a level paved road at 15 MPH, and I use to go North Wales to mid Wales on a tank full, 60 miles with a 0.6 gallon tank. It would do around 25 MPH which was not too bad, could do the trip in around 3 hours.

But in the mid 80's my 200 cc Yamaha (RD200) was doing about 60 MPG, and my Reliant Regal super van was also doing about 60 MPG, as was at that time the 2CV.

So we should be looking at 60 MPG as minimum, some cars have exceeded that, but not that many, with the speed limits in town set to drop to 20 MPH and many country roads now down to 50 MPH, we don't really need local transport to be able to exceed 60 MPH, that is enough, and with the charging time for electric they would need to travel faster to do same distance in same time, so with road safety in mind, petrol likely better.

My Honda Jazz is not much better MPG to Morris Minor, but it goes a lot faster, may be the Citroen Ami with top speed of 28 MPH is going too far, but the concept of the Morris Minor with a small cheap car seems to have gone, for a time we had the Vauxhall Agila also the WaggonR which seemed to return to small car, and the Toyota Yaris, but it seems these have grown again.

Finding a car small enough to fit in parking bays and open doors seems to be hard. Only option seems to be Electric as they have wider parking bays, right next to the shop, VIP parking but with a different name.

Some thing like this but more reliable would do. Invacar rule KO.

 

[RandomGrinch]

Horses are awful! They fart methane, which I think is about 4x worse than CO2 as a greenhouse gas, and eat stuff that could otherwise be absorbing CO2!

Not quite...
They do still produce methane, but not in nearly the quantities that ruminant species do. And as mentioned in the article, if the conditions are right, they could actually sequester carbon.
Here's a scientific study:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0737080618306452

It's looking at ways to reduce methane outputs from horses, assuming a large growth in the worldwide population.

 

[Avocet]

I read today about reduced bus services and how people are turning to cars.

It is OK for me, does not matter, retired, so does not matter if I arrive in town at 8 am or 12 am, I only need around 2 hours in town, however to replace the car with other transport, you need to arrive before work is due to start, and can't leave before your work is completed.

I could in the 70's get to work by bus, and even latter some routes could be done by bus, however the cost was getting silly, in the main due to multiple companies running the service. So a trip of 15 miles from Mold to Ellesmere Port for example required 3 buses, one there and two to return, each had weekly tickets, so cost at turn of century £60 a week when earning in my daughters case around £80, it was a case of get a car or not work. And once one has the car, you can forget using a bus.

With raising fuel costs, and Colvid on the wane, we have a chance of replacing the car, but even the push bike has problems, I use an e-bike, I can get to and from local town, round trip 16 miles, just about, still a hard push on the hills of Wales, and I can just about beat the train, which takes 50 minutes. But only runs 5 days a week and three times a day summer only. First train arrives 11 am, so OK for me, but not for anyone trying to get to work.

At one time buses Mold to Ruthin had cycle racks, alas no more. Even the train, unless the bike folds, then hard to get them on.

It seems scooters are not legal as no pedals and only brakes on one wheel. So what's the answer to future transport?

It's a very difficult problem, and I think the first stage, is to define the problem. When you ask what the solution is, the starting point (I feel) has to be "what's wrong with a private car"?
If it's air quality and tailpipe emissions, many of the problems can be addressed by simply going electric. If it's congestion, then it doesn't matter what it's powered by, you need to make it smaller. If it's CO2 and climate change, electric could still be a solution, depending on how the electricity is generated.

Public transport only really works in areas with high population density and a relatively small number of destinations, relatively close together. If you forced operators to put on bus services in rural areas, most of them would drive round, largely empty, most of the time.

I think we have to take an honest look at why we prefer cars? They are, without doubt, convenient. Your own, personal space, with your music and kept at a temperature you like - nice and dry when it's raining. No shaven-headed thug with his feet on the seat you want to sit on, no schoolkids blasting their music out, no drunk, leaning against you, etc. They provide true door-to-door transport for almost any trip. They provide autonomy, if there is a problem en-route. (e.g. you can sometimes take a different route) and give you a degree of control and flexibility over your journey that no public transport ever could. And all that, is before we even get into less tangible things like the pride of ownership, status symbol, etc. Basically, the private car is bloody amazingly good at what it does! The search for an alternative is doomed, I feel, until we start out acknowledging those benefits.

Of course, there are downsides. We become fat and lazy. They burn fuel and natural resources - not all of which can be effectively recycled. Handled inappropriately, they can be very dangerous. They are so popular, that there are lots of them, clogging up our roads and city centres. They are expensive to maintain and operate....

I think that at least the first part of the solution, is to simply cut back on what we already have. My first car had 35 horsepower. It could move 4 people (5 at a push) around - albeit not very fast! Yes, it was noisy, uncomfortable, about as safe as a wet paper bag in a crash, and indeed, something of a social embarrassment, but it did "the job"! My current car still only moves 5 people around, but has another 300 horsepower on top of the 35! Nobody needs that!

I therefore think the first "easy wins" are probably to simply curb the excesses that we currently have. Some manufacturers are thinking along those lines now, with small, electric city cars, of very low performance, getting back towards the original Citroen 2CV "Umbrella on 4 wheels" concept. The problem is that in a free market, few people will want such vehicles (myself included)!

 

[Avocet]

Not quite...
They do still produce methane, but not in nearly the quantities that ruminant species do. And as mentioned in the article, if the conditions are right, they could actually sequester carbon.
Here's a scientific study:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0737080618306452

It's looking at ways to reduce methane outputs from horses, assuming a large growth in the worldwide population.

I think it's just a lousy idea altogether. We've been there before! Ironically, the motor car was hailed as an environmental saviour at the turn of the 20th century, because our cities were absolutely choked with horse dung, flies, **** and carcasses!

The Surprising Source of New York's First Environmental Problem

Was it the automobile? Was it lead from paint? Was it poor water conditions? No — it was horse pollution.

www.mentalfloss.com

 

[ericmark]

It does seem that we have since records have been kept tried to reduce the pollution. Be it the manure on London's streets, lead in the air, or CO2.

But it seems in Wales at least we are going to see a 20 MPH speed limit, at least for motor vehicles with over 250 kW of power from non human sources. So we will have the cyclist overtaking the car.

This to me seems daft. May as well have a guy with a red flag. But the main point is routes need to be cyclist friendly, which means any route where cyclists can use must not have any armaco barricades.

Being trapped between a vehicle and a hedge is bad, but between a vehicle and a steel barricade is 100% worse.

 

[Avocet]

It does seem that we have since records have been kept tried to reduce the pollution. Be it the manure on London's streets, lead in the air, or CO2.

But it seems in Wales at least we are going to see a 20 MPH speed limit, at least for motor vehicles with over 250 kW of power from non human sources. So we will have the cyclist overtaking the car.

This to me seems daft. May as well have a guy with a red flag. But the main point is routes need to be cyclist friendly, which means any route where cyclists can use must not have any armaco barricades.

Being trapped between a vehicle and a hedge is bad, but between a vehicle and a steel barricade is 100% worse.

The rest of the country will, I'm sure, watch Wales with interest. Like you, I feel the blanket 20 MPH limits are a huge backward step, largely around political posturing and revenue generation than road safety, but we'll see...

 

[diy_fun_uk]

I think we have to take an honest look at why we prefer cars? They are, without doubt, convenient. Your own, personal space, with your music and kept at a temperature you like - nice and dry when it's raining. No shaven-headed thug with his feet on the seat you want to sit on, no schoolkids blasting their music out, no drunk, leaning against you, etc. They provide true door-to-door transport for almost any trip. They provide autonomy, if there is a problem en-route. (e.g. you can sometimes take a different route) and give you a degree of control and flexibility over your journey that no public transport ever could. And all that, is before we even get into less tangible things like the pride of ownership, status symbol, etc. Basically, the private car is bloody amazingly good at what it does! The search for an alternative is doomed, I feel, until we start out acknowledging those benefits.

I can't see how, for many (most?), public transport will ever be able to compete on this, the exception perhaps being for those living in large cities/towns with a very regular bus/train/tram system. Not unless in the future they have PDTPs (Personal Driverless Transport Pods) that you request to your door for transport to your requested destination. And if you wanted it for the bulk of a day, what would the cost be? And that model probably goes against public transport objectives i.e. less vehicles overall.

In a way it's ironic. Over past decades the freedom to go where we want when we want was opened up to the masses. Followed by massive road building projects and car ownership left right and centre. Now, the objective is to encourage the masses out of their vehicles and on to public transport, or to walk/cycle. Again ironically, things people did a lot more of pre the 'personal car' boom.

Rightly or wrongly, at 50 I have no desire to buy a bicycle and in reality, it would offer very limited convenience to me re the way I live. For example I can't do my weekly shop going to/from the supermarket on a bike. Doing it on foot is also not practical. So what's the solution on that specific example? To take the bus? Again we're back to the convenience thing, not only in terms of time (I can be there and back within 70-80 mins in the car) but I can also throw my 4-5 full bags in the boot and drive to my door, as opposed to carrying them on/off a bus and then walking home.

No thanks.

 

[DiyNutJob]

The alternative is no transport. You can get your chats from the internet, same way you can get other things from the internet. For your groceries, 20mph is not that terrible once a week.