Getting one back on the distributors - very useful info..

[dunny123]

I had a board change yesterday where the supply was overhead , the fusebox was earthed using the incoming gas (actually a good earth at 75ohm!). The service head was PME. I called central networks "PME team" (after 10 minutes of going round the houses), and asked if the supply has been upgraded/was PME as it was not labelled. I was told they have no records of that nature. She was sympathetic and said she had been asked a few times before but couldn't help. I suggested they should as its important information...was getting nowhere so spoke to a supervisor who said much the same. He said I would have to apply for PME (£151) and if it turned out not required would be refunded !! They at least agreed to "look into it" and call me back.

I then phoned the NICEIC helpdesk and asked if there were any regulations concerning this. The chap was spot on and said they were legally obliged to provide the info under Electricity, Safety, Quality & Continuity Regulation, 2002, regulation 28
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20022665.htm

So it was a call back to Central networks, with renewed powers ! After spelling out their legal obligations, I was eventually called back by an engineer who said the property was PME (because "all of that area is")

I asked if it was OK to link the incoming neutral to the earth block and he said yes. Bingo, a free PME upgrade !

 

[ColJack]

"because all of the area is" is not reason enough to trust that yours has been upgraded to PME..
without a specific "yes our record show that your property is / has been upgraded to PME" then I wouldn't trust it..

at least get it in writing.. with a name and contact info for the engineer that said it was..

 

[securespark]

I have to agree. If the local network will not support PME without changes to the DNO's wiring, then making a DIY PME could spell disaster.

If your "PME" connection is no good, you have a main earth connection taken from the gas pipe. It has never been allowable to do this, and since 1966, using a water supply as an earth connection has been deleted.

Even if you have a "good" earth at 75 Ohms, this is a dangerous installation, even more so if there is no RCD protection.

If it is PME, it is imperative to fit PEB's. You say there is a gas connection, but do not mention the water and other services.

Are you NIC registered? What would the NIC helpdesk say about you connecting up to a "PME" terminal without DNO approval?

I don't want to upset you, but I think you have acted irresponsibly & put your customer in danger.

If you are in Staffordshire, I used to work that patch. There are countless 100's of TT supplies, some correctly labelled PME and converted but many not labelled and not converted to PME.

I suggest you get accurate information from the DNO about their "PME" supply, preferably via a visit from their engineer. Get it in writing there is PME or ask them to label it as such with an official DNO sticker.

Then make sure the PEB's are in place and your test results satisfactory before you leave the customer with an energised supply.

 

[dunny123]

I have to agree. If the local network will not support PME without changes to the DNO's wiring, then making a DIY PME could spell disaster.

If your "PME" connection is no good, you have a main earth connection taken from the gas pipe. It has never been allowable to do this, and since 1966, using a water supply as an earth connection has been deleted.

I have contacted the DNO and they have informed me the property is PME

Even if you have a "good" earth at 75 Ohms, this is a dangerous installation, even more so if there is no RCD protection.

The previous "good" earth from the gas pipe is now effectively PEB.
Why would there be no RCD protection, its a dual RCD new board with RCBOs for smokes and alarm. Why is that dangerous ?

If it is PME, it is imperative to fit PEB's. You say there is a gas connection, but do not mention the water and other services.

Any earthing system demands main bonding, what indicates from my post that I would omit bonding from water, gas, structural steel etc ?

Are you NIC registered? What would the NIC helpdesk say about you connecting up to a "PME" terminal without DNO approval?

Yes I am. The helpdesk stated that the DNO has a legal obligation to inform me of the earthing arrangement at the property. They subsequently informed me it was PME. As per my OP, the DNO also gave me approval.

I don't want to upset you, but I think you have acted irresponsibly & put your customer in danger.

If you are in Staffordshire, I used to work that patch. There are countless 100's of TT supplies, some correctly labelled PME and converted but many not labelled and not converted to PME.

I suggest you get accurate information from the DNO about their "PME" supply, preferably via a visit from their engineer. Get it in writing there is PME or ask them to label it as such with an official DNO sticker.

Then make sure the PEB's are in place and your test results satisfactory before you leave the customer with an energised supply.

Irresponsible ? I think I have acted the opposite. I have indeed contacted the DNO, have insisted by law that they inform me of the arrangement of earthing at the address after stating to them their legal obligation. Why should I insist on it in writing ? Do you ask for all aspects of the supply for any given job in writing, or does a sticker next to the service head suffice ?I have obvously ensured PEBs are in place as this is part of the requiements of BS7671 2008 as is ensuring test results are satisfactory.

The thrust of my post was to draw attention to the fact that the DNO must by law provide information upon request regarding the supply to a property, and to articulate the relevant regulation.

 

[dunny123]

"because all of the area is" is not reason enough to trust that yours has been upgraded to PME..
without a specific "yes our record show that your property is / has been upgraded to PME" then I wouldn't trust it..

at least get it in writing.. with a name and contact info for the engineer that said it was..

As I stated, they have no records down to a specific house. I of course took his name and time of call. As I said above do you get in writing confirmation of the earthing type at each job you work on (I don't, I make an assumption on what is visible, in general)? At least in this instance I actully contacted them as I was unsure.

 

[ColJack]

on a job like that I would..

they were being very vague and you took them at one mans word that it was PME and that it was safe to link the earth to the neutral block..

if anything was wrong it would have been your butt on the line and your word versus his..

I learned a long time ago, if they seem like they're covering their butts, you make sure to cover your own.. ( words to live by passed down by my Grandad GRHS )

 

[securespark]

You contacted the DNO and they say it is PME, but they don't sound 100% to me.

The good earth from the gas pipe is only effectively a PEB IF your PME connection is genuine.

In your original post, RCD protection was not clear.

What indicates you may omit bonding to water was that it was not mentioned in your post.

DNO's never IMO give approval for a contractor to do their own PME connection. I may be proved wrong, though.

I think you are irresponsible and naiive to assume a PME connection on the say-so of someone on the end of a phone, especially as it is not labelled as such. You need confirmation to cover your ass should it not be PME and things go tits-up.

I do not ask for all aspects of the supply in writing generally. HOWEVER, in this case, I would need confirmation of PME being present before connecting it as such. In the interim, I would treat it as TT.

You say "or does a sticker next to the service head suffice?"

Yet in your original post, you said it was not labelled.

OOI, I have a couple of queries:

Were you able to attach the earthing conductor without opening the cut-out? If not, what arrangement of wires were there?

What was your Ze?

 

[dunny123]

on a job like that I would..

they were being very vague and you took them at one mans word that it was PME and that it was safe to link the earth to the neutral block..

if anything was wrong it would have been your butt on the line and your word versus his..

I learned a long time ago, if they seem like they're covering their butts, you make sure to cover your own.. ( words to live by passed down by my Grandad GRHS )

a) I believe I have acted responsibly and contacted the DNO and acted on their advice.

b) If the supply tarnspires not to be PME, please explain why the installation is unsafe.

 

[ericmark]

When I had similar problem the supply authority visited site and measured the ELI before giving me a PME earth connection block. FOC.

As to writing part I was told by our health and safety adviser anything to do with health and safety has to be in writing. It seems this does include Email and Fax and does not have to be on paper but seems it is a legal requirement. This was born out when the HSE paid a visit and a guy tried to drop me in it. I said I had no record of what he had just said and had he filled in the fault report form. On admitting he had not the HSE guy warned him he could find himself in court for not reporting in writing.

This is nothing to do with electrical regulations it's general health and safety regulations.

 

[ColJack]

a) i never said you acted irresponsibly.. verbal advice isn't worth the paper it's not written on..

b) for the same reason why you don't connect the neutral of a TT system or a TN-S system to earth... otherwise we'd all be whacking earth rods in and connecting the neutrals to it at the consumer end..

and for the same reason as this post turned out...


we're not trying to cast dispusions on your ability here friend, we're merely expressing concern at the rather un-enthusiastic response you got from your DNO.. and the ensuing umming and ahhing you got when you threatened them with something legal..

 

[JonoPashley]

Personally i would have put a rod in, its not our responsibility to mess with the suppliers connections regardless of what some DNO chimp says.

 

[Stoday]

The chap was spot on and said they were legally obliged to provide the info under Electricity, Safety, Quality & Continuity Regulation, 2002, regulation 28
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20022665.htm

Section 28 says:

28. A distributor shall provide, in respect of any existing or proposed consumer's installation which is connected or is to be connected to his network, to any person who can show a reasonable cause for requiring the information, a written statement of...

Go back and get them to comply with the law.

 

[dunny123]

a) i never said you acted irresponsibly.. verbal advice isn't worth the paper it's not written on..

b) for the same reason why you don't connect the neutral of a TT system or a TN-S system to earth... otherwise we'd all be whacking earth rods in and connecting the neutrals to it at the consumer end..

and for the same reason as this post turned out...


we're not trying to cast dispusions on your ability here friend, we're merely expressing concern at the rather un-enthusiastic response you got from your DNO.. and the ensuing umming and ahhing you got when you threatened them with something legal..

Ok, fair enough. It has however occured to me that in a non PME area, it only takes one household to have an un-noticed neutral-earth fault on the consumer side (and I've come across a fair few N-E in even my limited experience on the non RCD side of split loaders) to create their own "TN-C-C (and I suppose also to all those connected to the same main, all via his RFC CPC !! Also I know of at least one DNO engineer who moves meters as foreigners. does a live UG joint on a TNS supply into some split con to the new meter position and pops on a PME head and its now "TN-C-S"

It just brings into question the validity of a given earthing system....

 

[securespark]

Which leads me back to the Ze. What was it?

 

[dunny123]

Which leads me back to the Ze. What was it?

Ze was 0.17 (bonding disconnected)