Grumpy old man on a Sunday

[STI]

I didn't want to hijack chuckle brothers post.

Can someone explain why it is ok to put up a outside light on a outside wall of the house, which is exposed to the elements, it will get wet(assume not in a porch etc),it will extend some circuit somewhere, (again for the purposes of the question assume its not coming off the kitchen or sauna or bathroom or shed circuits,), when there is a good possibility of changing the bulb (oops sorry luminaire) in less than dry weather standing in a puddle, that this install is not notifiable. But if i wanted to add a light in a bathroom possibly with all the connections/power in the loft, with very little likelyhood of it getting wet and when it comes to changing the luminaire i probably wouldnt stand in the bathwater, i do have to notify.

Not having a go at anyone just trying to make sense of the Part P and regs. I know its too late to change them but unless i am missing something it does seem a strange differentiation.

 

[ColJack]

it is notifiable.. it's a special installation.. outside power and lighting comes under that as well as none pre-wired lighting sets ( ie downlighters )

 

[Spark123]

You can argue that "Approved document P" which is guidance issued by the government on part p of the building regs says that adding an outside light is non-notifiable, therefore wether or not you would be prosecuted for installing an outside luminaire to the wall is another matter.
A luminaire is a light fitting, did you mean lamp?

 

[STI]

Hi Coljack,

In the electricians guide to the building regs it says in the additional notes from approved doc part p Outdoor lighting g. Outdoor lighting and power installations are special installations . Any new work in, for example, the garden or that involves crossing the garden is notifiable.

It then goes on to say in section i. The installation of equipment attached to the outside wall of a house ( for example security lighting, air conditioning equipment and radon fans) is not notifiable under part p provided that there are no exposed outdoor connections and the work does not involve the installation of a new circuit or an extension of a circuit in a kitchen or special location or associated with a special installation.


I read this as per my post you can do it without notifying as long as you meet the "provided that" elements. The reference to the special installation in part i is a little confusing but i read this as you cant run a circuit from one of those to provide power to the outside light.

Bring back the rugby on a Sunday

 

[STI]

Lamp

 

[Spark123]

Outdoor lighting and power installations are special installations, not special locations.

 

[Paul_C]

just trying to make sense of the Part P and regs.

You won't be able to. There are numerous scenarios of notifiable vs. non-notifiable work one could think of which just don't make sense. Why, for example, is it acceptable to tap into an existing circuit and run a spur to a new socket (assuming not a special location) without notification, but if you run the same cable back to a new circuit breaker it's notifiable?

 

[STI]

Sorry spark123 not got the glasses and was reading point f when i typed that bit you are correct and point g says they are special installations. But i think it still means it can be done without notification

 

[Spark123]

Two main pointers here:
Guidance issued by what was the ODPM says you can do it without notification.
The Law doesn't say you can do it without notification hence it is notifiable.

 

[Chri5]

The installation of equipment attached to the outside wall of a house ( for example security lighting, air conditioning equipment and radon fans) is not notifiable under part p provided

You fit something to the outside of a main building, there is no exposed cabling, the switching / connection to the fitting, alarm box, bell. buzzer (etc) is inside the house- hence it's a DIY job.

If you have to run any cable externally (as in no straight through the wall and in to the fitting) it's a notifiable job.

 

[STI]

The installation of equipment attached to the outside wall of a house ( for example security lighting, air conditioning equipment and radon fans) is not notifiable under part p provided

You fit something to the outside of a main building, there is no exposed cabling, the switching / connection to the fitting, alarm box, bell. buzzer (etc) is inside the house- hence it's a DIY job.

If you have to run any cable externally (as in no straight through the wall and in to the fitting) it's a notifiable job.

Hi Chris5,

Not ignoring what anyone else has said in reply to my question.

Taking your point/explanation, thats what i mean when i ask why do i need to notify if i add a light fitting in my bathroom. The electrical connection is in the loft,so no exposed cabling about the only thing that is in the bathroom are the pull cord switch connections but surely thats no worse than the lamp connections in the outside light. I still think there is less chance of water ingress to the pull cord connections on a ceiling a good few feet away from a shower head,if the bathroom even has a shower compared to rain water lashing the side of a house with a lamp on it..
Dont want to flog a dead horse i am just interested if there is a reason why they are different.

 

[ColJack]

Why, for example, is it acceptable to tap into an existing circuit and run a spur to a new socket (assuming not a special location) without notification, but if you run the same cable back to a new circuit breaker it's notifiable?

because in the first instance you are utilising an existing circuit who's overload protection has already been worked out and proven to work
the second is adding to the potential maximum load of the installation and you may fit the wrong size or type of breaker..... it's the "messing with the breakers" bit that makes it notifiable, not the new socket and cable..

there's nothing to say you can't spur a socket from an existing circuit at the breaker.

 

[Spark123]

The government must think we are a bunch of brainless idiots

 

[Spark123]

Taking your point/explanation, thats what i mean when i ask why do i need to notify if i add a light fitting in my bathroom. The electrical connection is in the loft,so no exposed cabling about the only thing that is in the bathroom are the pull cord switch connections but surely thats no worse than the lamp connections in the outside light. I still think there is less chance of water ingress to the pull cord connections on a ceiling a good few feet away from a shower head,if the bathroom even has a shower compared to rain water lashing the side of a house with a lamp on it..
Dont want to flog a dead horse i am just interested if there is a reason why they are different.

A bathroom is a special location as people can be wet and naked hence their body resistance is lowered and susceptability to fatal electric shock from a fault is increased.
Wether or not you change your outside light in the nude is another matter
Another area where the Guidance and the Law differ is in the description of a bathroom.
In Law the "special location" means a location within the limits of the relevant zones specified for a bath, a shower, a swimming or paddling pool or a hot air sauna in the Wiring Regulations, sixteenth edition, published by the Institution of Electrical Engineers and the British Standards Institution as BS 7671: 2001 and incorporating amendments 1 and 2."
Therefore if the work is outside the zones as defined by law it isn't notifiable for the purpose of it being a special location.

http://www.diynot.com/wiki/_media/electrics:speclcn:16th_bathroom_zones.jpg?w=&h=&cache=cache

 

[Paul_C]

Why, for example, is it acceptable to tap into an existing circuit and run a spur to a new socket (assuming not a special location) without notification, but if you run the same cable back to a new circuit breaker it's notifiable?

because in the first instance you are utilising an existing circuit who's overload protection has already been worked out and proven to work

The overload protection has been worked out for the circuit as it was originally installed. If somebody comes along and runs a spur from a 30A ring in 1.0 sq. mm cable, what happens to that protection? But that spur is not notifiable.

the second is adding to the potential maximum load of the installation and you may fit the wrong size or type of breaker..... it's the "messing with the breakers" bit that makes it notifiable, not the new socket and cable..

Any addition is adding to the potential maximum load of the installation, including adding a few extra lights, which is not notifiable in many cases.

And as in my previous example, somebody could just as easily use the wrong size of cable in non-notifiable work as he could fit the wrong type or size of breaker.

So looking at it logically, if somebody can't be trusted to work out what size fuse or breaker is needed for his new circuit, why can he be trusted to know what size cable to use when extending an existing circuit?

there's nothing to say you can't spur a socket from an existing circuit at the breaker.

But if you put the same extension on a new breaker next to it, suddenly it becomes notifiable. Shows just what a load of nonsense the whole thing is.