Hi I have just realised that I have used some old three core cable for two way switches, can I use sleeving to comply with new regs or do I have to rip out the old cable and use the new harmonised cable. Problem is the new building has just been plastered so will cause major set back chasing out the cable routes and pulling new thorugh ceilings!! This is a new build started in 2008
harmonised cables
- Thread starter boygeorge
- Start date
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When was the job designed ?
When the Electrical Installaton Certificate is completed for this job it will have to be stated in the Departures box.
You would be well advized to discuss this with your LABC if you are not a member of a self -certification scheme.
On the issue of sleeving, if the cable is not replaced then the sleeving on this part of the circuit will have to comply with the old wiring colours [Red Not Brown] and the Colour change niotice installed adjacent to the consumer unit.
When the Electrical Installaton Certificate is completed for this job it will have to be stated in the Departures box.
You would be well advized to discuss this with your LABC if you are not a member of a self -certification scheme.
On the issue of sleeving, if the cable is not replaced then the sleeving on this part of the circuit will have to comply with the old wiring colours [Red Not Brown] and the Colour change niotice installed adjacent to the consumer unit.
H
holmslaw
..
Why is it dangerous?
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I have pulled all the cables in myself and I have a qualified spark who is going to check all the terminations and sign off but he is away on hols and I have only just realised the old cloured cable as I am strating the second fix/terminations.
H
holmslaw
..
Hi Boy george.
What you are proposing to do is referred to as Third Party Certification and is not permissable under the Building Regulations.
There is no such application where he can "Sign off" work not undertaken by himself. You will be unable to gain a Building Regulations Completion Certificate, which could affect future sale of the property, not to mention possible £ 5000 fine and rip out of the non-complying work.I would contact your LABC and explain the situation and be guided by their advice.
What you are proposing to do is referred to as Third Party Certification and is not permissable under the Building Regulations.
There is no such application where he can "Sign off" work not undertaken by himself. You will be unable to gain a Building Regulations Completion Certificate, which could affect future sale of the property, not to mention possible £ 5000 fine and rip out of the non-complying work.I would contact your LABC and explain the situation and be guided by their advice.
But then you won't comply - for 2 way lighting strappers all 3 conductors should be sleeved with the appropriate coloured sleeving. There is nothing stopping the OP sleeving all 3 with brown sleeving.
Why would that be, not heard that before.
Assuming only the 3 core is old colours, It would somewhere have to join with brown cable for the circuit to work.
So should be sleeved brown in my opinion.
With as you say a label at the DB.
IMO mixing old and new colours when it is reasonable not to is illegal.
Not realising that you've made a stupid mistake it until it becomes inconvenient to rectify does not count as "reasonable".
I've come to the conclusion that none of the people here who claim to be electricians are telling the truth. Real electricians, it would appear, are on holiday almost all of the time.....
Blueberry pie, anyone?
We could have it for dessert after we've finished our blue corn nachos covered in melted blue cheese.
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514.4.1 neutral should be blue. And Table 51 gives core colours but 514.5.4 does give the option to use numbers. Also BS7671:2008 is not law. And if we were to follow the requirements to the letter then we could not use triple and earth cable for two way switching or twin and earth for normal switching unless it was of two brown cores type.
There is no difference in putting sleeves on blue cable to show it is used for line as to putting same sleeve on a red cable to show it is used for line. Yes it would not be permitted to sleeve the black of a pair with brown and leave the red as is but to sleeve them both must be OK. Otherwise the whole idea of using sleeves on cables coloured for three phase would also be outlawed.
As to the whole idea of getting some one else to check your work this would depend on what access the inspector has. It is common for firms to employ Electricians with C&G2391 to inspect the work of a group of electricians who have not got the qualification. To do this the inspector must of course be able to inspect at all stages of the work and have full control of what the electricians without 2391 are doing.
When one looks at the rules it becomes hard to say a house holder can’t do work on his own house in the same way while under instruction from the electrician who is signing off the work. However it is plainly against the rules for a house holder to do the work then get an electrician in to sign it off.
If work is done while the electrician is on holiday then quite obviously it is not really being done under instruction. But I am sure the same must be true where firms employ testers and I am sure all the electricians he has under his control are not told they must take a holiday at the same time as the inspector.
However to employ the house holder to do the work would likely need the house holder to be officially employed in order for insurance to cover his work. And in real terms this would open a bag of worms and to ensure the required paperwork was in place to control income tax and/or having the required self employed status would likely cause problems especially with insurance and registration with governing bodies.
So though not impossible it is highly unlikely that the householder could do the work. More likely the Electrician will claim it’s his own work. This then presents a new problem as it does not really matter what we say on here. The Electrician will need to claim he did the work and to install cables with old colours would be something he would be unlikely to want to claim as his own work even if they are allowed with sleeves.
He will likely want the work to be A1 so no one will ever question if it was done be him or anyone else.
So in real terms only one person can say yay or nay and that’s the person signing the paperwork. So you may as well face it either you renew for new colours now or you wait for him to come back off holidays and ask him. Any answers on here mean nothing.
As to why we changed. It was because Red/Green colour blindness is most common of the options and so to avoid mistakes colours unlikely to be mistaken with the common types of the disability would be avoided. This did make some sense with flex but with fixed wiring one would hope people who are colour blind would not be employed as electricians.
There is no difference in putting sleeves on blue cable to show it is used for line as to putting same sleeve on a red cable to show it is used for line. Yes it would not be permitted to sleeve the black of a pair with brown and leave the red as is but to sleeve them both must be OK. Otherwise the whole idea of using sleeves on cables coloured for three phase would also be outlawed.
As to the whole idea of getting some one else to check your work this would depend on what access the inspector has. It is common for firms to employ Electricians with C&G2391 to inspect the work of a group of electricians who have not got the qualification. To do this the inspector must of course be able to inspect at all stages of the work and have full control of what the electricians without 2391 are doing.
When one looks at the rules it becomes hard to say a house holder can’t do work on his own house in the same way while under instruction from the electrician who is signing off the work. However it is plainly against the rules for a house holder to do the work then get an electrician in to sign it off.
If work is done while the electrician is on holiday then quite obviously it is not really being done under instruction. But I am sure the same must be true where firms employ testers and I am sure all the electricians he has under his control are not told they must take a holiday at the same time as the inspector.
However to employ the house holder to do the work would likely need the house holder to be officially employed in order for insurance to cover his work. And in real terms this would open a bag of worms and to ensure the required paperwork was in place to control income tax and/or having the required self employed status would likely cause problems especially with insurance and registration with governing bodies.
So though not impossible it is highly unlikely that the householder could do the work. More likely the Electrician will claim it’s his own work. This then presents a new problem as it does not really matter what we say on here. The Electrician will need to claim he did the work and to install cables with old colours would be something he would be unlikely to want to claim as his own work even if they are allowed with sleeves.
He will likely want the work to be A1 so no one will ever question if it was done be him or anyone else.
So in real terms only one person can say yay or nay and that’s the person signing the paperwork. So you may as well face it either you renew for new colours now or you wait for him to come back off holidays and ask him. Any answers on here mean nothing.
As to why we changed. It was because Red/Green colour blindness is most common of the options and so to avoid mistakes colours unlikely to be mistaken with the common types of the disability would be avoided. This did make some sense with flex but with fixed wiring one would hope people who are colour blind would not be employed as electricians.
No, but the Building Regulations are.
P1 requires that reasonable provision shall be made in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury.
Using mixed colours makes an installation more hazardous to people maintaining or altering it, if it did not then there would be no need for a notice drawing peoples' attention to it and advising them to take great care that they haven't misidentified a conductor.
So by deliberately using mixed colours when it was reasonable for you not to have done so means that you have deliberately and unreasonably done something which makes it more dangerous to persons maintaining or altering the installation.
OK OK will replace the cables, thanks for your advice very sensible.
G
Goldberg
Precisely correct, but this is merely the starting point, and it's abundantly clear that "reasonable" is not defined, so this isn't a black and white situation.
I completely concur with this.
I disagree with this.
In some situations using old colours is the more reasonable action.
For example, if the overwhelming majority of cabling in an installation is of the old colouring, and if adding new colours increases the opportunity to become confused, then it (adding) would be the wrong thing to do, on the grounds that decreasing confusion is the objective.
Whether or not to use old colours is best decided after fully thinking about the relative merit(s) and danger(s) of doing it.
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